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#1 2012-05-30 01:03:18

Astronomikal
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Inverted Chords

Main triad = 1-3-5 where 1 is the root and the bass.

First inversion = 3-5-1 (3 is the bass)

Second inversion = 5-1-3 (5 is the bass).


Assuming the above is true, there are two other possible combinations:  3-1-5 and 5-3-1.

My guess would be 3-1-5 is still called a first inversion and 5-3-1 is still called a second inversion.

In other words, the bass note determines whether it is "uninverted" (upright?  LOL!), a first inversion or a second inversion.  After that, the order of the other two notes is irrelevant.

True?


"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.

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#2 2012-05-30 02:33:02

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

True.

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#3 2012-05-30 04:06:27

Astronomikal
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Re: Inverted Chords

Thank you.


"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.

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#4 2012-05-30 19:04:20

jerome.oneil
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Re: Inverted Chords

Inversions are best understood on a keyboard, rather than a fretboard.  I'm not good enough to make them matter on a guitar, but I'm sure there are folks out there that are.


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#5 2012-05-31 06:42:13

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

Classical players do a lot more voice leading than we do. Inversions are pretty irrelevant for rock chording.

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#6 2012-05-31 18:54:33

jerome.oneil
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Re: Inverted Chords

Yup.  I dream of the day when chord voicing can be based on "what sounds best for the song" rather than "what am I capable of fretting."  big_smile


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#7 2012-05-31 21:36:58

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

That's my today. smile

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#8 2012-05-31 21:37:54

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

Addendum - I will say that not enough players think of the bassist as helping to form the chord. We don't always need to play root, 3rd, 5th, 7th. I play a lot of 3rd and 7ths or 3rd, 7th, 9ths (color tones), let the bassist handle the root and ignore the 5 (unless it's a dim chord).

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#9 2012-05-31 23:17:37

jerome.oneil
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Re: Inverted Chords

As a guy that primarily plays bass, I wholeheartedly agree.   My guitar player isn't even remotely a theory guy, though, so it's sometimes hard to explain what I mean.  As a result, I often play the 3rd or the color tones.


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#10 2012-05-31 23:50:27

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

so he likes him some power chords and chunkin?

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#11 2012-06-01 00:32:08

jerome.oneil
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Re: Inverted Chords

We are a country oriented punk band, so yeah, power chords and chunkin' (we call it "The Chucka Chucka") is where it's at.


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#12 2012-06-01 05:02:24

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

You can prolly forgo color tones and just play roots and fifths while you drink jim beam from the bottle. Just sayin.

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#13 2012-06-01 05:22:56

Astronomikal
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Re: Inverted Chords

jerome.oneil wrote:

We are a country oriented punk band...

Probably not many of those around, so you may have invented a new genre of music.  You'll have to come up with a name for it.  I suggest "mash-mosh"  (Mash for corn whiskey, mosh as in pit.)

What do you guys mean by "color tones"?


"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.

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#14 2012-06-01 05:42:11

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

Chord extensions....anything above the root, 3rd or 5th.

So in a c dominant, color tones would be the 7 9 11 and 13, or

Bb, d f a

Play a low open e note and barre a d major above it and you'll hear color tones.  wink

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#15 2012-06-01 16:07:26

Astronomikal
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Re: Inverted Chords

Baldguitardude wrote:

Play a low open e note and barre a d major above it and you'll hear color tones.  wink

Done.  Sounds kind of "sour" to me, but I'm sure there's a place for it.


"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.

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#16 2012-06-01 16:30:58

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

I was typing on my phone and got lazy... I didn't give you a resolution.  Try this:

x
12
12
12
x
0

x
10
11
12
x
0

Then the first chord again.

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#17 2012-06-01 18:25:09

jerome.oneil
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Re: Inverted Chords

Baldguitardude wrote:

You can prolly forgo color tones and just play roots and fifths while you drink jim beam from the bottle. Just sayin.

We do a lot of that, but there are some more melodic tunes that allow me to wander the fretboard.  Overall, it's pretty satisfying.  The crowds generally like us, and the bars keep inviting us back, so we're OK.   Country bass is sort of the  Haiku of music.  It's a generally well defined form, but there is actually a lot you can do with it.

We have committed to generally improving our musicianship, though, so perhaps there's some kind of prog-rock future for us.   smile


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#18 2012-06-01 18:28:12

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

My convos go: "Dude wrong note."

"No, you said play a G chord."

"I said G minor chord."

"That's what I played!!!"

"Play it again please...ok ok.  See that note...? That's a B natural. Lower your index finger a fret...there you go....that's a G minor."

"I like the way it sounds better when I play it my way."

"Yeah but then we're playing two different - dude please just play a power chord ok?"

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#19 2012-06-01 18:31:51

jerome.oneil
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Re: Inverted Chords

Astronomikal wrote:

jerome.oneil wrote:

We are a country oriented punk band...

Probably not many of those around, so you may have invented a new genre of music.  You'll have to come up with a name for it.  I suggest "mash-mosh"  (Mash for corn whiskey, mosh as in pit.)

We call it "Cow Punk" or "Rock-n-Tonk."  Ain't nothing new under the sun, though.   Hank Williams III does a lot of good stuff like that, and there is a really cool country scene popping up here in Seattle, which tied in with our grungy past, is coming up with some nifty little bands.  Locals like The Fuzz and Shamewreck are doing pretty cool stuff.


What do you guys mean by "color tones"?

As BHD notes, any note above the 5th is a color tone.   There are really only two types of chords, triads and 7ths.  So any time you see a Zb13 chord, you can cheat a bit and play it as a Zb7, as all 9, 11, and 13's are just 7s with the color tones added.  It's a good way to expand your repertoire, as all those songs that looked really complicated become a lot more simple, and you can learn the color chords on your own time.


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#20 2012-06-01 18:38:03

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

jerome.oneil wrote:

As BHD notes, any note above the 5th is a color tone.   There are really only two types of chords, triads and 7ths.  So any time you see a Zb13 chord, you can cheat a bit and play it as a Zb7, as all 9, 11, and 13's are just 7s with the color tones added.  It's a good way to expand your repertoire, as all those songs that looked really complicated become a lot more simple, and you can learn the color chords on your own time.

You can also play other triads that contain a different chord's color tones.

For instance a G 9 chord looks like this

g b d f a

Note that the top of that chord is a d minor....d f a. So you can play a d minor chord over a G, which acts as a really colorful G7. This works great if you have a good bass player, not so well if you don't. smile

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#21 2012-06-01 19:28:42

jerome.oneil
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From: Bellevue, WA
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Re: Inverted Chords

Baldguitardude wrote:

My convos go: "Dude wrong note."

"No, you said play a G chord."

"I said G minor chord."

"That's what I played!!!"

"Play it again please...ok ok.  See that note...? That's a B natural. Lower your index finger a fret...there you go....that's a G minor."

"I like the way it sounds better when I play it my way."

"Yeah but then we're playing two different - dude please just play a power chord ok?"

Haha! I have that conversation a lot, too. 

"Can you play the G rather than the F#?"

"Why?"

"Because it's in E minor and no one will know if you don't."


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#22 2012-06-01 23:59:46

Astronomikal
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Posts: 644

Re: Inverted Chords

Baldguitardude wrote:

I was typing on my phone and got lazy... I didn't give you a resolution.  Try this:

....

Much better.  You're right.  It needed a context.

Sorta reminds me of the first time I heard an A/B as 7x765x.  Thought it sounded really dischordant until I heard it followed by a B as 79987x.

Alternate that a few times and follow it with an Ab to A (E shape barre on  4 and up to 5) and you get the intro to "I'm Not In Love" by 10cc.  Great song with some interesting sounds.


"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.

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#23 2012-06-02 00:01:34

Astronomikal
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From: Texas
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Posts: 644

Re: Inverted Chords

Baldguitardude wrote:

"Yeah but then we're playing two different - dude please just play a power chord ok?"

Best laugh I've had in a while.  Thanks for that!

You guys are like my own personal theory teachers.  Thanks very much for your willingness to share your knowledge.


"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.

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#24 2012-06-02 00:16:15

Baldguitardude
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Re: Inverted Chords

Wouldn't it be funny if we were both lying just to screw with you? smile

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#25 2012-06-02 00:25:19

Astronomikal
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Posts: 644

Re: Inverted Chords

Oh yeah.  That'd be freakin' hilarious.

Although, I'd have to hand it to you if you were.  The degree of off-thread collusion you must be involved in is pretty impressive.  I'd take consolation in the fact that you spent way too much time and energy just to screw with me.


"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.

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