Topic: BMI

Is slowly shutting us out of all the venues we used to play.....:(

They just don't want to pay the $1K and up a year , then the bands too

In fact, BMI claims anyone who runs so much as a radio or even TV's publicly owe them

contract

They surf the net, find venues on Fbook, and confront the owners

My Q is, does a band need to register to play cover tunes?  Would this then release bar owners the BMI responsibility?   Has anyone else gone down this road?  Christ on a cracker,i'm just a musician , not a lawyer......~S~

Re: BMI

IDK, when I grew up  I worked the door for a band that did all covedrs,,, but the sure fire way around this,, Play all original music.  Hilly Crystal had it right when he opened CBGB's  Play original.  (or something soooo obscure  no one knows its not yours)
I just sent this to my buddy ( via FB)  who is a professional musician for 40 yrs .   He may get back to me.

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)

Re: BMI

To be honest, we're not that good that we can rise to any level of originality Beam, fact is we've botched some tunes so bad the writers should be suing us....~S~

Re: BMI

I know this was a problem years ago. I didn't know it was resurfacing. I have been doing a few gigs for a guy who won't advertise. He has had this problem in the past and is trying to avoid it. I like Beamers idea of all original music. Only problem there is most people want to hear covers. It's hard to get people to accept new music. Even the Rolling Stones can't play new material without complaints.

    Joe

5 (edited by Tenement Funster 2017-01-10 13:48:48)

Re: BMI

We have a similar entity here in Canada, whose job it is to protect copyright material (music, art, published material, etc.). We would probably all agree that the owners of the creative input to art should have some legal protection ... it's how they earn a living. When I had my 3 retail stores, our lawyer gave us advice along these lines:

Whoever is benefiting from reproducing copyright material is responsible for the BMI fee. If we only played local radio stations or satellite radio in the stores, the provider was already paying those fees. They collected them through advertising sales, subscription fees, etc. However, if we wanted to play our own mix, CDs, etc., then we would have to join.

In your situation, your idea to be BMI members yourself should absolve the venue owner of any responsibility. As you have rightly guessed, your lawyer will be your best source of advice on that. If you have your own BMI license, then your "employers" shouldn't have any culpability. I'm not a lawyer, but this was my own experience with a similar situation ... I hope it's helpful.

Re: BMI

sisyphus wrote:

My Q is, does a band need to register to play cover tunes?  Would this then release bar owners the BMI responsibility?   Has anyone else gone down this road?  Christ on a cracker,i'm just a musician , not a lawyer......~S~

You don't pay to play cover tunes.  The bar pays so that whoever wrote that song gets paid for your right to play that cover tune.   Responsibility for acquiring those rights rests with the venue.   

It is actually to your benefit to join BMI and other artists rights organizations though, as it generally costs nothing, and it ensures you will get paid if someone is playing your original songs.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

7 (edited by beamer 2017-01-10 21:30:35)

Re: BMI

AS I mentioned I have ananswer from a friend who has been a "working class musician" since he was 16 and is still in the game, mainly running sound for people now, bu the has pretty much been there and done that, played with incredable players and some famus ones at that.  anyhow,  Here is his answer  " This has been a question fr years. BMI & ASAP go around collecting fees from club owners for using cover music in the bars to make money. I have never seen BMI or ASCAP collect money from bands for playing covers even though technically its possible. They usually just harass the bars till they pay up. I have heard of publishing companies trying to threaten bands online into paying or they will send a cease and desist order but its nearly impossible for them to enforce it. Technically any of us using cover music that is owned by a publishing company are suppose to pay for the rights to use or perform it but think of how many years it been done without any success from publishing companies collecting money from us. Again its nearly impossible but occasionally they will try to find a "sucker" that will pay

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)

Re: BMI

and some excerpts from Alton (you can tell he is one of my favorite guys)  Taken from this web blog http://allmanbrothersband.com/modules.p … ;tid=13287 (and his almost big time band that i have been name dropping here for ever - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYz0tjm5nns and http://www.metalforcesmagazine.com/site … rior-mf15/   and the last long time project  the sharkadellics http://www.sharkadelics.com/  & https://www.reverbnation.com/thesharkadelics 

EXCERPT:
So, realistically speaking, what's the best-case scenario for a cover band?

To find out, I looked up Alton Eddins, guitarist for the Sharkadelics, one of the region's most heavily promoted cover groups. Eddins, once aligned with guys who would later form '80s metal outfit Firehouse, has had his own dalliances with original music. ("Everyone who knows me has heard that story 100 times," the guitarist jokes.) These days, however, he's with a band that's successful in its own right.

"I guess you could say that we play a lot of hard-rock and pop-type music," Eddins muses. "We play some funk, too. Songs like 'Brick House,' and things like that. We try to keep it interesting."

Eddins notes that songs by The Clash pop up in a Sharkadelics show as frequently as those by The Commodores – but his group's set list is largely composed of radio-rock tracks that almost anyone with an FM receiver would know. The Sharkadelics try to appeal to as many people as they can; providing variety is part of their job, and they take it very seriously.

Not long ago, in fact, the group was picked for a Budweiser sponsorship. They started getting bigger and better gigs, and their faces began appearing in print advertisements – courtesy of one of the world's most successful breweries. The Sharkadelics even received boxes of giveaway items to distribute at shows – a development that, not surprisingly, pleased the crowd to no end.

The only catch – if you can even call it that – is that band members now have to wear Budweiser-emblazoned clothes during their performances. They consider it a small concession.

Because the Sharkadelics now find themselves at the top rung of their chosen profession – an in-demand band playing to packed bars on choice nights. Eddins even claims that his group makes a decent living off their performances.

So, the big question: Where to next?

"Nowhere," admits Eddins. "Not around here, at least. Not in this market.

"Hopefully," he adds, "we'll be exactly in the same place 10 years from now that [we're in] today."

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)

Re: BMI

Interesting replies , and much appreciated guys.   

Alton is basically thumbing his nose @ BMI , vs. i'm told it's also a good org to join

If we 'create' , i can understand the copywrite laws granting ownership to the creator. 
Where we to do so, this is easy to do (i've done the postage thing in my past) 
IF i was an aspiring artist , i'd want my work foisted upon the public in any mode of communication possible, imitation being the highest form of flattery i can plainly see the exponential return

What i don't understand is where that dime really goes playing covers ,  what % does the actual creator really get?  Most of what i read from top players isn't all unicorns and buttercups concerning the 'industry'

~S~

Re: BMI

In Nz the venue pays a license fee that covers bands that play.
Personally i`d rather hear original music.
Most of the cover bands around town play the same stuff & all sound the same.
I hope they are getting well paid for it,other wise why would you bother?
apart from getting paid i can`t see the point in doing covers.

The King Of Audio Torture

Re: BMI

easybeat wrote:

apart from getting paid i can`t see the point in doing covers.

Some of us aren't that creative. As Dave Van Ronk said, "Why play a mediocre song I wrote when I can play a terrific song someone else wrote?"

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: BMI

Zurf
You aren`t creative? of coarse you are,just listened to your version of Scotts song.
hope i didn`t piss anyone off with my comments about covers,but it is my opinion.
I guess the thing that gets me most about covers, is when the person covering it
doesn`t put a bit of themselves in the cover.
i write mediocre songs,but still get a bigger buzz than any cover i try.
I often think `creative` is more a` in the head thing` than an `actual ability thing`

The King Of Audio Torture

Re: BMI

Zurf wrote:
easybeat wrote:

apart from getting paid i can`t see the point in doing covers.

Some of us aren't that creative. As Dave Van Ronk said, "Why play a mediocre song I wrote when I can play a terrific song someone else wrote?"

That terrific song sounds terrific when someone else is playing it other than me............

That's why I write my own songs, so folks won't know how bad I play covers.

DE

I want to read my own water, choose my own path, write my own songs

14 (edited by beamer 2017-01-11 12:28:13)

Re: BMI

sisyphus wrote:

Interesting replies , and much appreciated guys.   

Alton is basically thumbing his nose @ BMI , vs. i'm told it's also a good org to join

If we 'create' , i can understand the copywrite laws granting ownership to the creator. 
Where we to do so, this is easy to do (i've done the postage thing in my past) 
IF i was an aspiring artist , i'd want my work foisted upon the public in any mode of communication possible, imitation being the highest form of flattery i can plainly see the exponential return

What i don't understand is where that dime really goes playing covers ,  what % does the actual creator really get?  Most of what i read from top players isn't all unicorns and buttercups concerning the 'industry'

~S~

BMI is the music mafia,  its not about the artist, its about their profit margin, They didnt have to worry about it in the old days cause it covered mainly for covers you do on a record or commercial, but now with streaming and low record sales,ect,, they are going after club owners like a strong arm collection for the mob.  Honestly, and no offence to any in chordie, but I would take advice from the guy who is still in the thick of the industry at the club level.  Not only the above stuff I have showed you , but he has also been road mgr for Caleb Johnson (American idol winner and touring with Kiss at this time) and he works sound for the Artimis Pyle (original Lynyrd Skynrd drummer) band.  The guy lives music and Pays his bills with  it.  I would take his advice any day.

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)

Re: BMI

Dirty Ed wrote:

That's why I write my own songs, so folks won't know how bad I play covers.

DE

That is exactly my position.  It's hard a bluegrass festivals, though.  All those jams going on and I don't know any songs.  big_smile

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: BMI

beamer wrote:
sisyphus wrote:

Interesting replies , and much appreciated guys.   

Alton is basically thumbing his nose @ BMI , vs. i'm told it's also a good org to join

If we 'create' , i can understand the copywrite laws granting ownership to the creator. 
Where we to do so, this is easy to do (i've done the postage thing in my past) 
IF i was an aspiring artist , i'd want my work foisted upon the public in any mode of communication possible, imitation being the highest form of flattery i can plainly see the exponential return

What i don't understand is where that dime really goes playing covers ,  what % does the actual creator really get?  Most of what i read from top players isn't all unicorns and buttercups concerning the 'industry'

~S~

BMI is the music mafia,  its not about the artist, its about their profit margin, They didnt have to worry about it in the old days cause it covered mainly for covers you do on a record or commercial, but now with streaming and low record sales,ect,, they are going after club owners like a strong arm collection for the mob.  Honestly, and no offence to any in chordie, but I would take advice from the guy who is still in the thick of the industry at the club level.  Not only the above stuff I have showed you , but he has also been road mgr for Caleb Johnson (American idol winner and touring with Kiss at this time) and he works sound for the Artimis Pyle (original Lynyrd Skynrd drummer) band.  The guy lives music and Pays his bills with  it.  I would take his advice any day.

A club has no right to host performances of a work owned by someone else any more than a publishing company has a right to put someone's work on a record if they don't own it.  That is not only morally correct, it's the law.

BMI distributed $950 million in royalties to artists this year on a little over a billion in revenue.   Most of the money they take in goes back to their member artists.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: BMI

Its a crap shoot, and all opinions differ.  Why not ask the club owners?

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)

Re: BMI

A club has no right to host performances of a work owned by someone else any more than a publishing company has a right to put someone's work on a record if they don't own it.  That is not only morally correct, it's the law.

BMI distributed $950 million in royalties to artists this year on a little over a billion in revenue.   Most of the money they take in goes back to their member artists.

Add in any shopping mall , televised , or otherwise 'public airwave' accessible media playing say, oldies , and the issue would appear to boarder on moral turpitude Jerome

Further, the $$$ goes to the 'copywrite owners',  which in what i understand is the majority of cases , isn't the original creator at all, instead the record labels as well as music industry CEO's are the one's  sucking up the $$$

https://i.imgur.com/1bWsrRa.png

~S~

Re: BMI

beamer wrote:

Its a crap shoot, and all opinions differ.  Why not ask the club owners?

Because club owners are the ones in violation of the artist's rights.  It's essentially asking a thief what he thinks of the police.

If they are making money (and they are) off of other people's music,  they need to pay those other people.  That is what BMI and ASCAP do.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: BMI

sisyphus wrote:

A club has no right to host performances of a work owned by someone else any more than a publishing company has a right to put someone's work on a record if they don't own it.  That is not only morally correct, it's the law.

BMI distributed $950 million in royalties to artists this year on a little over a billion in revenue.   Most of the money they take in goes back to their member artists.

Add in any shopping mall , televised , or otherwise 'public airwave' accessible media playing say, oldies , and the issue would appear to boarder on moral turpitude Jerome

Further, the $$$ goes to the 'copywrite owners',  which in what i understand is the majority of cases , isn't the original creator at all, instead the record labels as well as music industry CEO's are the one's  sucking up the $$$
~S~

That's perfectly OK.  In 100% of those cases the rights to the work were explicitly transferred by contract.   That is also just and the law.  If I write a song and Sony Entertainment buys the rights to the song from me, that is my choice.  I got paid.   If that song goes on and makes Sony a bazillion dollars because they have access to massive marketing and distribution channels, and had Justin Beber sing it, then that is *also* just and correct.  They bought the rights to the song. It belongs to them now.  The reason labels get a large portion of that revenue is because they purchased a large portion of songs from people.

If you sell your car and someone goes and wins the Indy 500 in it,  it doesn't entitle you to any of the winnings.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: BMI

There's a world of examples of artists being coerced by industry bureaucracy Jermone

Richard Berry , writer of Louie Louie sold for $750  (later winning  a $2M lawsuit)

So yes, you may claim it's the'law'  , but it can not achieve, nor can it assume any moral high ground as the 'law'   

Were I to have the grand priviledge to play Paul McCartney, Chuck Berry , Robert Plant's creations in front of them, do you really think they'd have hat in hat?, speed dial their lawyers?

Where i to do the same for some up/coming area artist (yes i've met my share) do you think they're approach would differ?

How  anyone steals by simply presenting the 'works' of said entities is purely the machinations of greedy recording industry elitists , who have so little in common with the real musical world it makes me wonder why they pursue it other than stuffing their own coffers

~S~

Re: BMI

sisyphus wrote:

There's a world of examples of artists being coerced by industry bureaucracy Jermone

Richard Berry , writer of Louie Louie sold for $750  (later winning  a $2M lawsuit)

It was the Kingsmen (the band that blew the song up) that got sued, specifically *because they hadn't paid any royalties for their cover* of it.  They won that suit.  And they weren't sued by Berry.  They were sued by the guy who ran the company Berry sold it to.

Berry sold his publishing rights for $750 but retained radio play rights.  He bought 3/4ths of the publishing rights back in the 80s.   He didn't get ripped off.  He wrote a song, sold it, and it blew up huge.   He made a pretty decent living writing songs, had one blow up to huge fame, and bought and sold his rights to it just as the law says.

So yes, you may claim it's the'law'  , but it can not achieve, nor can it assume any moral high ground as the 'law'

It is absolutely morally correct that the owners of a song have 100% complete control over what happens with that song.  That includes all rights for play, copy, publishing, and reproduction.

Were I to have the grand priviledge to play Paul McCartney, Chuck Berry , Robert Plant's creations in front of them, do you really think they'd have hat in hat?, speed dial their lawyers?

No, they'd simply wait for their check from BMI or ASCAP, just like the thousands of other artists those organizations protect.  It is their job to look after McCartney and Plant's best interests.

Where i to do the same for some up/coming area artist (yes i've met my share) do you think they're approach would differ?

What they do with their property is entirely up to them.  If they think it's cool you play their stuff, then good on them.  If they think you should pay them for the right to use their material then you should break out the checkbook.

How  anyone steals by simply presenting the 'works' of said entities is purely the machinations of greedy recording industry elitists , who have so little in common with the real musical world it makes me wonder why they pursue it other than stuffing their own coffers

It is the theft of someone's right and privilege to control how their work is used by those who think they should simply have access to whatever they want regardless of the artists desires.  And it's usually with some contorted justification based on "greedy executive" straw men and the singularly bizarre notion that by violating those artists rights, they're actually doing them a favor.  By your line of reasoning, Berry shouldn't even have received $750 for Louie Louie as anyone should have just been able to use it however they wanted.

If you want full control over stuff, write your own stuff.  When you're playing someone else's stuff, you do it according to their rules.  And for a whole lot of people, their rules are "I've joined a rights enforcement group to do that for me."

That's how it should be, as well as being the law.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: BMI

My sister is a freelance artist who has gained some notoriety.  She has to Google herself pretty regularly to see whether anyone is selling her work as posters or postcards or what-not without her permission, or whether anyone is selling work under her name when it isn't hers.  There are a surprising number of hits in both cases.  She's spent thirty years building a following and establishing her name.  Why should people be able to swoop in at the end and with no effort or investment take advantage of her hard work?  Well, they shouldn't.  Intellectual property laws protect her from those vultures. 

Step back. Take a deep breath.

The same thing holds true for musicians.

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

24 (edited by sisyphus 2017-01-14 11:03:07)

Re: BMI

Unfortunately , the end result on my turf is, the death of live music fellas. 

Being a number of localities BMI confronts simply shut down

Venue=0           Cover bands=0        Original artist=0   

article

~S~

Re: BMI

ITS THE END OF IT EVERYWHERE. as much as I love my mp3's   the day the home pc could rip a CD this was on the way.  It has been forever that bands played others music.  and I truly believe that bars have shut off the music because there are no mega record sales, thus as I said before.  Jerome has a valid point, yet bands have always played other peoples music.  and I firmly believe YOU CANT KILL ROCK AND ROLL.  They may not become mega rich, but it will be done for the love of music.  OPEN YOUR BARN, CALL YOUR FRIENDS AND HAVE THEM CALL THEIR FRIENDS,  AND ROCK AND ROLL! BYOB, and leave a tip jar at the door.  Private Property,  its yours use it and tell any HOA to KYA and GTFO

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)