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#51 2009-07-17 16:07:03

Russell_Harding
Alien moderator
From: A black hole in deep space
Registered: 2007-10-29
Posts: 6548
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Steve to edit or change the thread name go to the very first post and click edit at the bottom the original thread name can be changed on the top nice charts smile

canudigit wrote:

Lastly I would like to change the thread name, but I don't know how smile.  Would it be best to dispose of this thread and copy the basic info into an appropriately named heading?


"Growing old is not for sissies"

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#52 2009-07-17 16:11:50

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

jerome.oneil  wrote:

I think it's much easier to show using a keyboard, where you can break things down into white keys and black keys, to demonstrate how the key signature and the "number of sharps/flats" all make sense.  The fretboard can be a frightening thing sometimes!

I absolutely agree with you and thanks for that feedback:). 

I didn't do that because I was thinking this is a guitar forum and didn't want to confuse anyone with a different kind of instrument. 

jerome.oneil Do you think I should add a piano diagram to?

Also, I was thinking of creating the lessons with the learning objective stated up front so we can all give feedback and know exactly what the lesson is actually about.  I think this would be very helpful, but I would like to hear what others think.  This would be a way to have a standard, but this is just IMHO.

I am happy that we are all getting along not to mention I am learning how to communicate effectively in a forum.

This could have gotton much uglier, but we all did the rite thing smile.

Thanks Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-17 16:16:36)

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#53 2009-07-17 16:30:09

selso
Senior Member
From: Amarillo, TX
Registered: 2007-07-18
Posts: 970
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

canudigit wrote:

jerome.oneil  wrote:

I think it's much easier to show using a keyboard, where you can break things down into white keys and black keys, to demonstrate how the key signature and the "number of sharps/flats" all make sense.  The fretboard can be a frightening thing sometimes!

I absolutely agree with you and thanks for that feedback:). 

I didn't do that because I was thinking this is a guitar forum and didn't want to confuse anyone with a different kind of instrument. 

jerome.oneil Do you think I should add a piano diagram to?

Also, I was thinking of creating the lessons with the learning objective stated up front so we can all give feedback and know exactly what the lesson is actually about.  I think this would be very helpful, but I would like to hear what others think.  This would be a way to have a standard, but this is just IMHO.

I am happy that we are all getting along not to mention I am learning how to communicate effectively in a forum.

This could have gotton much uglier, but we all did the rite thing smile.

Thanks Steve

I think everyone had the best intentions, now on with the lesson!!


Everything is bad including me
But being bad is good policy
Reverend Horton Heat

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#54 2009-07-17 17:10:46

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

If possible, could one of the moderators change the thread title to something like "collaborative music theory" or whatever you think is appropriate?  I will go with whatever you decide. 

selso wrote:

I think everyone had the best intentions, now on with the lesson!!

I couldn't agree with you more selso smile.  Again this lesson will continue and I will keep posting and look forward to all your comments, suggestions, opinions AND constructive criticism.

Thanks

Steve

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#55 2009-07-17 17:16:10

jerome.oneil
Moderator
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: 2006-06-15
Posts: 3056
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

I'll see what I can do about a title change.  I try to take a hands off approach, so I must admit some inexperience with the tools.  smile

If you can create a keyboard diagram, I think that's really useful.


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#56 2009-07-17 17:18:01

jerome.oneil
Moderator
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: 2006-06-15
Posts: 3056
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hey!  That worked!   * pats self on back *


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#57 2009-07-17 17:31:54

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

jerome.oneil  wrote:

Hey!  That worked!   * pats self on back *

Thanks so much for the tile change, you did it in record time.  If I could see you I would pat you on the back too. KUDOS TO YOU! 

jerome.oneil  wrote:

If you can create a keyboard diagram, I think that's really useful.

You got it!  No problem at all. 

Do you want a keyboard diagram with the natrual notes (white keys) and sharp AND flat notes (black keys)? 

NOTE:  I am sure you already knew about the white and black keys, just trying to be clear. 

Let me know exactly what you want and I will get that out when I have a chance. 

Now this is how collaboration works!

The more feedback from you all the better.  I hope you all understand my PASSION for wanting to help as best as I can.

I look forward to working together and learning from EVERYONE!

Thanks

Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-17 17:34:54)

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#58 2009-07-17 17:56:22

Stonebridge
Senior Member
From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Registered: 2008-08-25
Posts: 182

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

canudigit wrote:

jerome.oneil  wrote:

I think it's much easier to show using a keyboard, where you can break things down into white keys and black keys, to demonstrate how the key signature and the "number of sharps/flats" all make sense.  The fretboard can be a frightening thing sometimes!

I absolutely agree with you and thanks for that feedback:). 

I didn't do that because I was thinking this is a guitar forum and didn't want to confuse anyone with a different kind of instrument. 

jerome.oneil Do you think I should add a piano diagram to?

Also, I was thinking of creating the lessons with the learning objective stated up front so we can all give feedback and know exactly what the lesson is actually about.  I think this would be very helpful, but I would like to hear what others think.  This would be a way to have a standard, but this is just IMHO.

I am happy that we are all getting along not to mention I am learning how to communicate effectively in a forum.

This could have gotton much uglier, but we all did the rite thing smile.

Thanks Steve

I would vote for a piano keyboard too. Showing the fretboard, keyboard, tab and staff gives everyone a chance.
I agree it's also useful, in fact it's standard practice in training literature, to state the learning objectives up front so everyone knows what the lesson is about.
Go for it.

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#59 2009-07-17 22:49:34

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

The reason I suggested creating the lessons with the learning objective stated up front is because I had to take a training module at work and that is the approach they used.  I found the approach to be very effective because I knew up front what I was supposed to get out of the lessons.  I learned quite a bit from that darn training module smile

Stonebridge wrote:

I would vote for a piano keyboard too. Showing the fretboard, keyboard, tab and staff gives everyone a chance.
I agree it's also useful, in fact it's standard practice in training literature, to state the learning objectives up front so everyone knows what the lesson is about.
Go for it.

Here we go yikes

Learning objectives

Learn the notes in the C major scale.
Learn the major scale interval formula.
Identify the C major scale notes on a keyboard, guitar fretboard, guitar tab and standard notation.

Diagram 1

http://home.comcast.net/~musicman2006/pwpimages/c%20%20major%20formula%20complete.png

Learn the notes in the C major scale.

The notes in the C major scale are C D E F G A and B.  The 1 is also commonly referred to as the "root".  You can think of the root as being the root(s) of a tree and the rest of the notes in the scale as being the blossoms providing color and contrast.  The notes are numbered 1 - 8 with the 8th note being the octave.

Learn the major scale interval formula.

Scales are created from intervals which are measured by the number of half steps from on note to the next.  The major scale formula is W-W-h-W-W-W-h.  W=whole step or two frets and h=half step or one fret.  The last half step that leads to the octave is appropriately called "the leading tone".

Identify the C major scale notes on a piano keyboard, guitar fretboard, guitar tab and standard notation.

The notes of the C major scale are the same for both the guitar and keyboard.  The main difference is "how the notes are laid out" and "how to physically play" the notes.

NOTE:  The small box on the first C note denotes middle C.  Middle C is located in the "middle" of a keyboard.

Conclusion:

The C major scale is a nice starting place to learn music theory because there are no sharps or flats.  The C major scale is a "reference scale" since all other scales have some kind of sharp(s) or flat(s).  This lesson not only applies to guitar and keyboard but any instrument that uses the 12 note chromatic scale. 

I hope you enjoyed this lesson and look forward to your comments and suggestions smile.

Thank you

Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-20 01:47:11)

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#60 2009-07-18 07:51:02

StranSongs
Senior Member
From: Belfast
Registered: 2009-03-31
Posts: 330
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Can I object to the keyboard. The keys are in black and white and in inverse proportion to numbers of black and caucasian people in the world population today ; )

Sorry - blame McCartney and Stevie Wonder!

Personally, I think you should learn to play in Nashville notation to start with. Then you would only need to learn chords and their relative intervals. Of course none of us do - because of the tyranny of the piano keyboard. Who ever wanted to invent an instrument that you couldn't just slip - slide four notes up five positions to be cool !


"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Davis

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#61 2009-07-18 09:16:04

Stonebridge
Senior Member
From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Registered: 2008-08-25
Posts: 182

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Looks fine Steve. The diagrams make it clear how the scale of C looks on a fretboard, a piano and in tab and treble clef notation.
It reminded me of a song from way back that helps you to know what the notes sound like, too.
When I was in school we learned the "tonic sol-fa" - you know, the doh ray me fa so la tee doh. This is how the major scale sounds.
The song I remember is "Doh a deer, a female deer, ray, a drop of golden sun..." etc from, I think, The Sound of Music film.
So if anyone knows the "sol fa" above, or knows that song, just remember that the notes of the major scale are those same notes you hear as doh ray me... etc.
Thanks for this lesson.

Last edited by Stonebridge (2009-07-18 09:16:30)

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#62 2009-07-20 14:34:42

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Thanks for the feedback.  What I will do is continue on with this lesson and will also add video so you can see and hear the examples. 

stransong wrote:

Personally, I think you should learn to play in Nashville notation to start with.

I prefer Nashville notation myself because of much simpler it is to transpose to other keys.  The standard numbers like 1,2m,3m,4,5,6m,7dim are more like that number system and in the end are easier to work with.

I will add the "Solfege" to the video for this first lesson. 

For the next lesson, I was going to show the sharps and flats according to the C chromatic scale and then show all the notes on all strings up the the 12th fret.

After this lessons, I was going to shift the C major scale notes to different positions to show that the only thing that changes is the scale fingering and guitar tab.  The standard notation and keyboard do not change. 

ANY and ALL ideas and suggestions are appreciated. 

The lessons will be posted according to your feedback and the time I have to post the lessons.

Thanks

Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-20 14:43:29)

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#63 2009-07-20 14:59:40

dfoskey
Senior Member
From: Georgia
Registered: 2007-07-10
Posts: 381

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Wow the keyboard and fretboard really explained to me how it works. I already knew the fretboard was laid out like the piano keyboard but this just confirmed it for me and helps me find the notes i need to play better up the neck. Thanks and keep up the good work.

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#64 2009-07-20 16:06:48

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

dfoskey wrote:

Wow the keyboard and fretboard really explained to me how it works. I already knew the fretboard was laid out like the piano keyboard but this just confirmed it for me and helps me find the notes i need to play better up the neck. Thanks and keep up the good work.

canudigit wrote:

The more appreciation I get the more I will submit smile.  I am happy to "shed some light" in any way I can.

I have some more lessons coming up so PLEASE check back and give me some feedback so I can make sure that what I present is being understood. 

The more feedback the better because if one person has a questions, there are most likely more people who have the same question.

When I post videos, you will be able to SEE and HEAR what the lesson is about.

Thanks again and please subscribe to this topic if you find the lessons helpfull.

Thanks

Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-20 23:26:44)

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#65 2010-05-29 15:29:09

harold theriot
Junior Member
Registered: 2008-11-09
Posts: 3

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

need copyies on penatonic scales for  guitar

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#66 2010-05-29 15:40:44

harold theriot
Junior Member
Registered: 2008-11-09
Posts: 3

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

can any one show me the penatonic scales for guitar  or tell where i can find them   thanks  god  bless

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#67 2010-05-30 09:42:48

tonynulty
Member
From: South Wales. UK
Registered: 2009-09-28
Posts: 56
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

canudigit,   Considering you have been a member from 2007, you could not have been reading the posts that have been discussed in this music theory forum, what you have stated in your thread we have all been through with jerome, and if we have a question we speak to jerome, he is the man who runs this music theory section.

you may be an expert, but you should respect jerome,s position,

self prase is no recomendation.

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#68 2010-06-09 18:39:28

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

I have been very busy with some family issues for quite a while so I haven't visited this thread in a while (sorry about that). 

It seems I am still getting "beat up" after all this time. 

When I first joined I was only looking for chord progressions to practice some songs and is why I did not read the music theory thread.

tonynulty, you didn't notice that jerome himself helped out start this thread did you????

If jarome had an issue, he wouldn't have let this thread continue and I appreciate him doing so.

I would like to get back to helping people with questions so I will just drop this thread and watch the music theory threads and help out there.

Thank you all who have had my back on this "out of control" thread.

Thanks

Steve

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#69 2010-06-10 21:01:57

jerome.oneil
Moderator
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: 2006-06-15
Posts: 3056
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

tonynulty wrote:

canudigit,   Considering you have been a member from 2007, you could not have been reading the posts that have been discussed in this music theory forum, what you have stated in your thread we have all been through with jerome, and if we have a question we speak to jerome, he is the man who runs this music theory section.

you may be an expert, but you should respect jerome,s position,

self prase is no recomendation.

Well, I don't think anyone should be afraid to offer up opinions and ideas.  I'm not the teacher, per se, and I'd hate for this place to become an "ask Jerome questions" area.   There are lots of smart people here sharing their experiences.   My role as a moderator is to foster discussion, and I think this thread has been a great example of the kind of dynamic feedback that can be generated as a result.

I love theory.  I'm an engineer, and theory works in explaining how music is "built."  I'm also a button pusher, so yeah, I'm guilty of rubbing the self praise button.  smile


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#70 2010-06-11 15:20:54

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hi Jarome,

Thanks for the reply:) 

I will help when I can and just want to bury the hatchet with this thread.  Nobody has all the answers. 

The best thing is to share ideas and experiences so we can ALL learn from each other. 

Thanks once again Jarome, I am looking forward to helping out when I can in here at chordie.

Thanks,

Stephen

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#71 2010-06-11 16:32:07

papaguitar
Senior Member
From: carson,washington
Registered: 2009-09-22
Posts: 350

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hi all, thought maybe I'd give my 2 cents. First of all I can see the word "expert" to be bold when used
   
    to describe oneself. Most like to call someone an expert as a compliment. I was not offended Steve,

    but it did raise my eyebrows as you intended. I personally have a lacking of theory even though the

    guitar has been a long time friend (30+ yrs) and like so many I just wanted to play and the theory

    was never REALLY a priority. What you offer is an understanding to beginners and others of the

    importance to learn music theory so they may find their potentials less painlessly unlike a lot of us

    that has beat our heads against the wall from the lack of knowledge.

    I value Jeromes input and answers very much. He has taken the time during his lifetime to learn

    what I have not. The information is out there if one wants to find it, but the great thing about this

    forum is the interactive discussion that can take place. Answers to questions will be given by those

    that have answers or opinions as such even if their answers create debate.

    I look forward to all input from anyone on this subject. Something else came of this too. The debate

    between Jerome and Steve made me really think and understand what the hell you guys are

    talking about.lol            Mike


Our intuitions serve us well

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#72 2010-06-11 17:39:42

jerome.oneil
Moderator
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: 2006-06-15
Posts: 3056
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hey pops, my problems are the exact opposite of yours.  My mind (the theory part) runs waaaay ahead of my hands (the application part.)   Whenever I go looking at new guitars, I always look at the real expensive ones, because everyone wants a brand new Taylor, right? 

Then I remind myself that while I have a $10,000 head, I only have $100 hands.  big_smile

One last expert joke.  My dad used to say "An expert?  An ex is a has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure."

I miss that man.  smile


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#73 2010-06-11 18:13:53

papaguitar
Senior Member
From: carson,washington
Registered: 2009-09-22
Posts: 350

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hey Jerome, great explanation! The joke I'll remember and use if you don't mind, sir.
   Also sorry for your loss. Mine is also gone as of long ago. I missed out on his widom.
                                                                                                    Mike


Our intuitions serve us well

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#74 2010-06-12 12:09:03

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Excellent responses!

Thanks

Steve

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#75 2010-06-12 16:22:39

tubatooter1940
Retired Beach Bar Entertainer
From: Alabama Gulf Coast
Registered: 2008-06-24
Posts: 1817
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Remember, someone who is extremely knowledgeable about a subject is an expert.
Someone who claims to know a great deal but doesn't is a shmexpert.
If you listen to and defer to a shmexpert - that makes you a schmuckspert.


We pronounce it "Guf Coast".
Ya'll wanna go down to the Guf?

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