Guitar chord forum - chordie — Chords, Scales & Modes

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (budda0000) — Thu, 03 Jun 2010 10:36:00 +0000

I am a guitarist and teacher of many years. To initially negate these very involved and confusing debates especially to the newbies, I simply instruct (those who are ready), to "Call any chord a Key. Key implies scale. Construct the chord (major or minor) from that major scale. If a minor is needed, find the third and flatten it". (Thus; the chord spelling)! This also applies of course to any extended note(s), e.g., C7-9, G7#5b9, etc. It works just fine for the *initial* introduction to chord construction.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (TheOnlyTaylor) — Mon, 22 Mar 2010 04:29:33 +0000

I'm pretty sure a chord or note played outside of the key is called "non-functional"

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (tonynulty) — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:26:03 +0000

Thank you very much for all your explanations. Tony Nulty.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (jerome.oneil) — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:35:59 +0000

1 3 5 is a perfectly legitimate chord progression. In C, it would be C Em G. When Russell talks about "outside" chords, he's talking about playing chords that don't fall into key.

In other words, when you are playing in a key, "inside" chords would only be made up of the 7 notes that are in that key. For example, in C major, all chords would be constructed of some selection of the notes

C D E F G A B

Using the modal discussion above, you can construct triads and 7s from that using only those notes.

However, using Russell's example, going from C (C E G) to E major (E G# B) you can see that G# doesn't exist in the key of C. To be "inside," or "in key" when playing an E based chord, it would need to be minor (E G B).

More to Russell's point, there is absolutely *nothing* wrong with that. It's just good to know what you're doing, and why.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (tonynulty) — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:02:23 +0000

The other week when we disscused chord progressions, we used the progression
1-4-5, why have we changed to 1-3-5 in this instance. tony.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (Russell_Harding) — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:25:44 +0000

not so Georgia,Abilene and a host of others use C to E or E to G# major (1,3 major) these are concidered outside chords

TheOnlyTaylor wrote:

and the 3rd has to be a minor chord rather than a major to fit into that specific key, ect.
It might take me a while....

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (TheOnlyTaylor) — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:57:09 +0000

oh, ok. I see what your saying. That doesn't surprise me at all, I was actually looking into that a while ago. thanks for the heads up.
I'm also thinking about figuring out what chords fit into what pattern.
Here's an example:
The tonic can always be played as a major chord, Major 7th, major 9th
and the Dominant(the 5th) can always be played a a 7th chord or a 9th
and the 3rd has to be a minor chord rather than a major to fit into that specific key, ect.
It might take me a while....

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (jerome.oneil) — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:28:42 +0000

It's not so much the tonic that changes, as that is simply identified by the name of the scale. What changes is the interval pattern. Just think of modes as shifting the two half step intervals up or down the scale, and you end up with different modes.

If we think of a major (Ionic) scale as the following interval pattern.

R W W H W W W H

Then Dorian mode would be

R W H W W H W W

Phrygian would be

R H W W H W W W

Etc.

Just as a note, the system you posted up is what the ancient greeks used. They used micro-tonal scales, which is how you could come up with an VIII. The modern diatonic scales we all know and love are it's direct descendant, which is why many of the modal names are shared.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (TheOnlyTaylor) — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 03:07:42 +0000

ya, I would've have explained that in my post but I had already spent two hours putting together all that info and I figured it would leave room for discussion if someone didn't understand that. Modes don't change the notes in the scale. The only thing they change is the tonic (or the root of the scale). correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry about mixing up VIII with I. I thought I fixed that before posting.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (jerome.oneil) — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:21:03 +0000

This is why understanding scales is so critical. All of the modes are based on some major scale. D Dorian is based on C major, as D is the second note of the C major scale. So D Dorian shares all the same notes as C major. E Phrygian would be based on C major, as would F Lydian.

C major is

C D E F G A B C D

D Dorian is

D E F G A B C D

E Phrygian is

E F G A B C D E

F Lydian is

F G A B C D E F

etc...

Make sense?
What you've started with is A minor (or Aolian), which is based on the VI of C major. Take the 1, 3, 5 of that scale, and you end up with A C E, which is an A minor chord.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (tonynulty) — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:51:17 +0000

Jerome, as you say to build a triad (1 3 5 )out of dorian mode, you would end up with D F A, which is a D minor chord, how do you know what letter to start with for each mode. A.B.C.D.E.F.G. in dorian mode 1.3.5. D is 1, F is 3, A is 5.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (jerome.oneil) — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:28:44 +0000

That's an example of the complexity that can be derived from just a few simple rules. At it's heart, everything there is derived from the major diatonic scale.

As a technical note, the modes are wrong. There is no VIII (That's just the root again, and octave higher), and some of these modal names are duplicated or archaic.

Ionian (a.k.a "major") I
Dorian II
Phrygian III
Lydian IV
Myxolydian V
Aolean (a.k.a. "minor") VI
Locrian VII

If you know that a major chord is made up of the I, III, and V notes of the major scale, you can use that exact same formula to construct triads from each of the modal scales. This explains why some chords work over certain notes in certain keys.

For example, if you were to build a triad (1, 3, 5) out of D Dorian mode, you'd end up with D F A, which is a D minor chord.

All of the above comes from that.

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (tonynulty) — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:23:51 +0000

I think you should add explanations with each section, i understood the first bit but after that ?. what does anyone else think.

Chords, Scales & Modes

null@example.com (TheOnlyTaylor) — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:19:06 +0000

I can't believe I actually typed all this out. If you have any questions or if you would like to add onto anything go ahead. Sorry if it comes out uneven. There's really nothing i can do about it.

Chords:

Major minor 7TH & 9TH (Dominate)
1 3 5 1 3- 5 1 3 5 7- 9(2)
I III V I III- V I III V VII- VIII (II)
C E G C D# G C E G A# D
G B D G A# D G B D F A
D F# A D F A D F# A C E
A C# E A C E A C# E G B
E G# B E G B E G# B C F#
B D# F# B D F# B D# F# A C#
F# A# C# F# A C# F# A# C# E E#

1 3 5 1 3- 5 1 3 5 7- 9(2)
I III V I III- V I III V VII- VIII (II)
C E G C Eb G C E G Bb D
F A C F Ab C F A C Eb G
Bb D F Bb Db F Bb D F Ab C
Eb G Bb Eb Gb Bb Eb G Bb Db F
Ab C Eb Ab B Eb Ab C Eb Gb Bb
Db F Ab Db E Ab Db F Ab Cb Eb

Augmented Diminished
1 3 5+ 1 3- 5-
I III V+ I III- V-
C E G# C D# A#
G B D# G A# F#
D F# A# D F G#
A C# F A C D#
E G# C E G A#
B D# G B D F
F# A# D F# A C

1 3 5+ 1 3- 5-
I III V+ I III- V-
C E A C Eb Gb
F A Db F Ab B
Bb D Gb Bb Db E
Eb G B Eb Gb A
Ab C E Ab B D
Db F A Db E G

Major Scales:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII
C D E F G A B C
G A B C D E F# G
D E F# G A B C# D
A B C# D E F# G# A
E F# G# A B C# D# E
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

I II III IV V VI VII VIII
C D E F G A B C
F G A Bb C D E F
Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
Eb F G A Bb C D Eb
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

Modes Espinoza
Dorian 1 I happy, taming the passions
Hypodorian 2 II serious and tearful
Phrygian 3 III inciting anger
Hypophrygian 4 IV inciting delights, tempering fierceness
Lydian 5 V happy
Hypolydian 6 VI tearful and pious
Mixolydian 7 VII uniting pleasure and sadness
Hypomixolydian 8 VIII very happy

Tonic    1 I
Super Tonic 2 II
Mediant    3 III
Sub Dominant 4 IV
Dominant    5 V
Sub Mediant 6 VI
Leading Tone 7 VIII
Tonic    8 I