1 Topic by Headcase (edited by Headcase 2009-06-18 11:22:52)

  • Registered: 2008-06-20
  • Posts: 139

Topic: E# & B# ?

I have a question which perhaps one of you could answer?

I was allways taught that there was no such note as E# Fb or B# Cb; however I was recently

at a Q&A night about Guitars, I asked the queiston that when you play the F# Major Scale to

keep the TTSTTTS or Do Re Me Fa So La Te Do going the Note E# in that scale is played as

F Natural then the Semietone is F#.

Someone then said that E# was the Enharmonic to F, but on the guitar Enharmonics like D# &

Eb A# & Bb as well as all the others are on the same fret and are the same pitch and it just

depends on wether the pice of Music you are playing is in a # or b Key.

Now in a sharp Key that has an A# it is noted the same as A, in a Flat Key the Bb is wrriten

the same as a B as in the Key of F. this I understand but how if there is no such note as E#

or B# how can they be Enharmonic notes; or am I missing something?

The guy who was taking this session is an Instructor and he agreed with the person who made

the statment, the Q&A session was to recrute new students?

Any help would be welcome.

Luck and Health to all!!!

2 Reply by Stonebridge (edited by Stonebridge 2009-06-18 12:40:11)

  • From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
  • Registered: 2008-08-25
  • Posts: 182

Re: E# & B# ?

Whoever told you that there is no such note as E# or Fb etc was incorrect.
Those notes exist. E#, for example, as you rightly say in your post, exists in the key of F# major. It is the last (7th) note of the scale. It must be written as E# in formal music notation.
The problem is only when you have to play the note. You then find that on keyed instruments and fretted instruments, it is the same physical note as F natural and is also at the same pitch.
The difference really is just one of musical "grammar". You choose the name of the note depending on what is correct for the key you are playing in.

  • Registered: 2007-04-25
  • Posts: 551

Re: E# & B# ?

I found a lot of this kind of stuff in the music we played in school jazz band.  Sometimes, depending on the key, you'll find notes written as accidentals such as Fb, Cb, etc.  I don't think I've ever seen E# or B#, but I've seen goofy stuff like Abb (double flat, so down one whole step, or a G) before too.  Whenever you see notes like E# or B#, just remember that they're the same thing as F and C.  If you have a piano, remember that there's no black key between E and F and between B and C.

"A steering wheel don't mean you can drive, a warm body don't mean I'm alive"
Switchfoot

06sc500's Website

  • Registered: 2008-06-20
  • Posts: 139

Re: E# & B# ?

Many Thanks to Stonebridge & 06sc500 for their quick responce, I think I see now where I was

going wrong, taking Theory too litrel and perhaps not seeing the wood for the trees?


Luck and Health to all!!!!

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: E# & B# ?

It's a semantic issue for the most part.   F# and Gb major both use "odd" notes to account for the half step between the IV and V.   It's really a trick of notation, more than anything.

Ask yourself.  Does A really "exist" in a real sense, or is it just a label we give to a particular frequency?  And if it's just a label, why can't we give it any old label.

E# and Cb "exist" in the same way.   If you're a math geek, it's akin to using i as a number to get past the problem with negative squares.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: Colorado
  • Registered: 2008-09-06
  • Posts: 31

Re: E# & B# ?

Threads like this give music theory a whole new meaning.  So they really exist, kinda. Just depends on the key.

Picking away at life, one tune at a time.
  • From: Belfast
  • Registered: 2009-03-31
  • Posts: 330

Re: E# & B# ?

Apparently you can play them on fretless instruments - violins etc - and they are heard as different notes. I'm only quoting other people though.

"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Davis

StranSongs's Website

  • From: North East England
  • Registered: 2008-10-26
  • Posts: 207

Re: E# & B# ?

its all gobblygook to me big_smile  Really i read headcase`s post and it could of been written in chinese for all i understood of it..nowt to do wiv you casey lol just me being a thickie tongue


cheers micky cool

cool Dont Stop Kid Keep Rockin'  !! cool
  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: E# & B# ?

leodragon wrote:

Threads like this give music theory a whole new meaning.  So they really exist, kinda. Just depends on the key.

Exactly.   They exist only in a few select keys, and those keys are rarely played, anyway, so they're often overlooked.  In the other 10 possible major keys, they'd simply be C or F.  But it would *always* be that tone.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

10 Reply by canudigit (edited by canudigit 2009-07-22 15:30:13)

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: E# & B# ?

Stonebridge wrote:

Whoever told you that there is no such note as E# or Fb etc was incorrect.
Those notes exist. E#, for example, as you rightly say in your post, exists in the key of F# major. It is the last (7th) note of the scale. It must be written as E# in formal music notation.
The problem is only when you have to play the note. You then find that on keyed instruments and fretted instruments, it is the same physical note as F natural and is also at the same pitch.
The difference really is just one of musical "grammar". You choose the name of the note depending on what is correct for the key you are playing in.

Here is an image that hopefully helps clear things up. 

http://home.comcast.net/~musicman2006/pwpimages/E%23%20in%20the%20key%20of%20F%23%282%29.png

http://home.comcast.net/~musicman2006/p … 282%29.png 

Like Stonebridge said above an E# does exist and is the seventh note in the key of F# (F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D# and yup E#).

Music notation can be difficult to understand especially when dealing with double flats, double sharps and enharmonic notes.  Things can ugy fast!

Excellent question smile

Thanks

Steve

NOTE:  If the image does not appear correctly, PLEASE let me know!  For some reason the image looks perfect then I preview but when I submit, the image seems choppy with lines missing sad.

UPDATE:  I have posted both the link and the image so if the image does not look clear, just click on the link.  The problem occurs when the image is larger than the page width and causes the image to distort.  I will try to post images in the correct size.

Thanks

Steve

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: E# & B# ?

Thanks for the reply.  I have been having the same issue and wonder what is going on :(.  When i preview, everyting looks perfect, when i submit I get the same as SoutPaw41L.

SoutPaw41L wrote:

And the "for chordie members only" logo at the bottom of your post makes us look like selfish snobs, in my humble opinion.

You don't sound so humble to me :).  I agree with you and will remove it now. 

Thanks for that valuable feedback

Steve

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: E# & B# ?

It wasn't an attack HONESTLY. I was just trying to be funny and failed miserably, sorry for that sad. 

Thanks

Steve