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#26 2009-07-15 15:18:00

henryb
Senior Member
From: Lhanbryde
Registered: 2006-03-04
Posts: 204

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

canudigit wrote:

Ok if I say I am just a guitar player and not an "expert" and made that statement would that be acceptable?

I am just a musician who wants to help others with some basic music theory that I teach in my own words and not teach a college music theory course.

I take back the term expert (since that is what started this whole mess) comment and would like to be considered a musian helping other musicians out.

If need be I can change the title so no more feathers get ruffled.

Thanks

Steve

Well I hope those of a pedantic nature go back to their little world, soon, and let the rest of us enjoy this site for the reasons we signed-up to Chordie. I,m certainly looking forward to a plain language explanation to music theory that is being offered. so give the guy a break,PLEASE.

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#27 2009-07-15 16:07:57

wlbaye
Honoured Member
From: Black Hills So Dak
Registered: 2006-03-04
Posts: 1267
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

bensonp wrote:

I'm with you, wlbaye.  I'm just pickin an grinnin to my hearts content.  I even get a little better on ocassion.

Great line Benson, when I look back, I think I get better on ocassion also!


Later, Wayne P

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#28 2009-07-15 16:09:36

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

henryb wrote:

I,m certainly looking forward to a plain language explanation to music theory that is being offered. so give the guy a break,PLEASE.

I realy appreciate that very much big_smile

I have been studying music theory for a LONG time and have come across many instances of complicated terms and methods and such and is why I chose to teach from my own experience.

My goal is to share what I know with others who are interested, nobody is being forced to read this stuff.

LESSON ONE SUMMARY:

There is a total of 12 tones in music.  The first seven letters of the alphabet are A B C D E F and G also called natural notes(there are no H I J K or L M N O P's) . The other five notes are the sharps and flats.

LESSON TWO SUMMARY:

A sharp symbol (#) placed after a natural note means to play the very next note higher.
A flat symbol (b) placed after a natural note means to play the very next note lower.

NOTE: Sorry for those who don't agree, but this is what I call the basic rule (this my own interpretation)

BASIC RULES:

B up to the very next note is C and not B#.

C down to the very next note is B and not Cb.

E up to the very next note is F and not E#.

C down to the very next note is B and not Cb.

Here are a few examples of sharps and flats.

C up to the very next note is C#.

D up the very next note is D#.

E down to the very next note is Eb.

A down to the very next note is Ab.

This applies to all pitched instrumens that utilize the 12 tones in music. 

If there are any questions, PLEASE let me know and I will clarify as best I can.  If there are no issues, then I will just continue from here.

Also, is there a way to paste in some nice and easy to read screen captures? 

If not, I will create a mini website that I can have you link to to SEE what I am talking about.

Thank you
Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-15 20:06:55)

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#29 2009-07-15 17:08:04

geoaguiar
Honoured Member
Registered: 2007-03-24
Posts: 1108

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Steve,
When do I call Ab G#? Is it dependent on the key I'm in?


I used to be disgusted; now I try to be amused.
Elvis Costello

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#30 2009-07-15 17:21:07

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

A G# and an Ab have the same exact frequency and sound the same to our ears.

The main difference is how it is notated in music. 

When learning all 12 major and minor keys, this will become more apparent. 

The next lesson will be learning the major scale formula and learning all the notes in the 12 major keys (one key at a time starting with the key of C).

Hopefully I can find a way to upload some images to give a visual (I already have the screen shots ready) of what I am trying to say.

The thing that I find about theory is that you can make a statement that is a paragraph long in text that could be explained in minutes by video or screen shots.

So (geoaguiar) PLEASE hang in there with me and things will clear up very soon. 

Thanks for the question

Steve

UPATE:  I found out how to upload images searching the forums so I will upload some images as soon as I have a chance.

Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-15 20:08:35)

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#31 2009-07-16 11:32:06

jerome.oneil
Moderator
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: 2006-06-15
Posts: 3034
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

henryb wrote:

Well I hope those of a pedantic nature go back to their little world, soon, and let the rest of us enjoy this site for the reasons we signed-up to Chordie. I,m certainly looking forward to a plain language explanation to music theory that is being offered. so give the guy a break,PLEASE.

There is a difference between pedantic and just being wrong.   A plain language explanation should, at a minimum, be accurate, don't you think?


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#32 2009-07-16 12:40:40

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Jerome you don't give up do you.  There is some interest here so if you don't mind give me a break. 

You already posted some guitar and scale primers so give someone else a chance.  I am a big boy and can answer questions on the lessons that I present in plain english not in boring technical gibberish.

This thread proves how complex music theory can get.  The music theory police may arrest you if you don't speak in technical terms.

If I asked someone what color an orange is most people would say "orange" but a technical theorist would say that an orange is a certain shade of the color orange.  Why make things so complicated when the don't have to be?

The 12 tones that have been talking about are called "the chromatic scale" and there are different versions of it. 

The issue is how a note  is notated according to it's relationship to the actual key. 

This is the kind of stuff I try to avoid and reserve for when it's time to learn about the 12 major and minor keys in order to avoid confusion.

The basic rule I mentioned earlier is (as I stated earlier) my own rule that get's broken when learning the keys in music.

The bottom line is to "play guitar anyway you like".  Some people like to fingerpick while other like to play with a pick. 

I personally like to play in different types of styles like classical guitar, strumming chords, fingerpicking, solo guitar, lead guitar etc..

The guitar is one of the most dynamic and versatile instruments on the planet.

Think about a piano.  When someone plays a piano they are not physically touching the strings.  A soft padded hammer hits the string removing the intimacy of actually touching the strings.  Not so with guitar.  Look what Eddie Van Halen did with two handed tapping.  He shocked the world with his two handed tapping style.

At this time I am trying to create a basic mini website for these lessons so I can put up my own images and files.  I will give an update as soon
as the site is ready.

I hope you can see my PASSION as a musican and wanting to share some knowledge with others.  I want to thank everyone who supports me in this thread and look forward to some feedback on the lessons so I can clarify (in my own words) what I am trying to say.

Thanks again,

Steve

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-16 14:22:19)

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#33 2009-07-16 17:39:05

Russell_Harding
Alien moderator
From: A black hole in deep space
Registered: 2007-10-29
Posts: 6479
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

so is this a recruitment drive for membeship?

canudigit wrote:

At this time I am trying to create a basic mini website for these lessons so I can put up my own images and files.  I will give an update as soon
as the site is ready.


"Growing old is not for sissies"

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#34 2009-07-16 19:12:19

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

No way!  This is an offer to help those who are intersted in learning music theory. 

Please reply and let me know what I can and can't do as far as posting lessons. 

I just thought it would be easier if I created a mini website.  I have NO PROBLEMS posting everything here.  The mini website would have been for the chordie community ONLY.

It seems that all the moderators are after me because I said I was an "expert".  I take that back and instead I would like to say I am a musician who wants to help other INTERESTED musicians out.

I am thinking this is more of a jealosy thing since there already have been posts on music theory already.  What is wrong with another persons view and way of teaching?

I do not want to cause trouble, if you ask I will leave in PEACE.

Thanks

Steve

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#35 2009-07-16 19:53:36

Russell_Harding
Alien moderator
From: A black hole in deep space
Registered: 2007-10-29
Posts: 6479
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Steve as far as I am concerned this is not a jealousy issue its part of my responsibility as a moderator to insure that members are secure from unsolicited ads (spam) or porn or enticements I stated at the very beginning of this thread that I wasn't opposed to additional theory ideas or lessons and i wished you luck there is nothing for me to be jealous about just concerned with the well being of this site and its membership hense the question smile


"Growing old is not for sissies"

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#36 2009-07-16 20:00:35

Stonebridge
Senior Member
From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Registered: 2008-08-25
Posts: 182

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hi Steve
I've been following your progress with interest and observing the reactions on here.
I'm fairly new to chordie but have been around internet forums, including those of the musical kind, for many years.
I think the reception you got on here is fairly typical of the way most forums seem to work.
I must say I was a little surprised by some of the posts from those who have been here a while and some of the moderators.
They were, shall I say, a little uncharitable. There should be no need for bickering on here as we are all in this to learn and pass on what knowledge we have to others who may benefit from it.
I tend to reply to a query in this section if I feel I can answer it and it looks like no one else has yet replied. People like a quick response.
Clearly you have knowledge that will benefit others, and want to share this. So far so good.

If you look in this section, you will see that Jerome has obviously spent a lot of time putting together some lessons on music theory, particularly scales. There's not much point in repeating this or going over the same ground, don't you think? No need to reinvent the wheel!
However, there are areas he hasn't covered yet so why not write something that fills in the gaps?
For example, in the section on minor scales he hasn't yet got around to talking about the "melodic" and "harmonic" minor scales, just the natural minor. Why not talk about that? Melodies in the minor key do not confine themselves just to the natural scale, and one needs occasionally to play major chords when singing a melody in the minor.
Just my thoughts on a possible topic.
Music theory can be highly complex and it is difficult to know where to start and how to approach teaching it.
The subject of scales, sharps, flats, keys etc is tricky.
Rhythm can be even worse and I have had disagreements on here over aspects of this.
However, don't let the bickering put you off.
Best wishes
Chris

Last edited by Stonebridge (2009-07-16 20:01:59)

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#37 2009-07-16 20:03:10

Guitarpix
Underwater Firefighter
From: North Carolina
Registered: 2007-02-08
Posts: 1905
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hello Canudigit,
  Welcome to the forums! Everyone teaches and learns differently...I wouldn't take anything personal. Myself, I see nothing wrong with the way things have been laid out. I struggled with learning theory. It took me awhile to finally grasp the concepts. What helped me the most was a friend that was able to finally lay it out in layman's terms similar to what you're doing. Once I had that basic understanding, I could make since of all the finer points and apply them to what I knew. Sure there were the details that I learned later on that conflicted with what I had first thought, but without that basic foundation it would have taken me much longer to grasp. I may have eventually became fed up with it and gave up on it.
   In short, I can see were this could help those just venturing into theory. You've explained that it's a basic understanding and that tells people that there is more to learn. At least now they have the basic understanding to make sense of the rest... IMO 

Thanks for putting forth the time and effort to help others! That's what it's all about man! -Pix


If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
         Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...

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#38 2009-07-16 20:43:37

wlbaye
Honoured Member
From: Black Hills So Dak
Registered: 2006-03-04
Posts: 1267
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Welcome to Chordie Steve,

      First off I would like to come to Jerome's defense, he has posted some very useful info, and has been there to answer questions as long as I can remember being here on chordie. I do think if I called you an expert everything would be cool but it's a little different refering to one's self. That seems to have gotten alot attention. I think if your intentions are good everything will be cool.


Later, Wayne P

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#39 2009-07-16 20:44:03

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

I thank you all for your support on this smile

Russell_Harding

I absolutely understand asking if I was trying to solicite unwanted ads, that realy drives me crazy.  I put my passion first and foremost and refuse to sacrafice that approach.

Stonebridge

There's not much point in repeating this or going over the same ground, don't you think? No need to reinvent the wheel!

IMHO you are exactly correct.  I did not read all the music theory threads so I wanted to start from the ground up.  I was hoping to cover any HOLES in the basics.

I can go over the melodic minor scale, but I need to know how to explain things since there are some real theory buffs here in the forums.  I don't want to use terminology that is not used here in the forum.

If most of the chordie members understand half and whole steps and how keys are created then I can go from there.  I will even put a jam track together if one of the moderators put together a progression and I will include tab.

I find the best way to learn is to apply what you learn and custom jam tracks (rather than computer generated tracks) is much better. 

We could share our leaning experiences with each other and see what works best.

Here is an example:

I tried practicing xx scale with xx progression and found xx notes worked better than xx notes. 

With this approach, we will be learning from each other.  I learn a LOT from listening to the experiences of others and I am sure there are some others here at chordie that would enjoy the interaction.

Thanks again everyone,

Steve

I am a team player and DO NOT want to hog this thread.  I am hoping that we can all come together to make this work.

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#40 2009-07-16 21:05:09

geoaguiar
Honoured Member
Registered: 2007-03-24
Posts: 1108

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

wlbaye wrote:

Welcome to Chordie Steve,

      First off I would like to come to Jerome's defense, he has posted some very useful info, and has been there to answer questions as long as I can remember being here on chordie. I do think if I called you an expert everything would be cool but it's a little different refering to one's self. That seems to have gotten alot attention. I think if your intentions are good everything will be cool.

Thanks for this post. Take note how this a polite, lucid and civil comment rather than condescending or defensive.


I used to be disgusted; now I try to be amused.
Elvis Costello

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#41 2009-07-16 22:17:59

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Nicely said. 

Firstly I thank all of you who have had my back on this thread smile.  AND I appolgize to everyone I have offended sad

I guess I was just a bit excited and just started off without making myself known and without helping on a question.  You guys and gals smile have been morea active in this forum than I. 

I haven't been as active in this forum to do what I did.  Now if you accept my appolgies I would like to move forward. 

P.S Do you want me to change the thread title?  I am afraid if I do, it will not get as much attention as it has big_smile.

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-16 22:22:29)

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#42 2009-07-17 01:03:58

Russell_Harding
Alien moderator
From: A black hole in deep space
Registered: 2007-10-29
Posts: 6479
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

I think its up to you smile

canudigit wrote:

P.S Do you want me to change the thread title?  I am afraid if I do, it will not get as much attention as it has big_smile.


"Growing old is not for sissies"

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#43 2009-07-17 01:26:03

henryb
Senior Member
From: Lhanbryde
Registered: 2006-03-04
Posts: 204

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

When can we expect lesson two, that,s the one after  ermmm oh yes lesson one.hfc.

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#44 2009-07-17 04:17:05

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

DISCLAIMER:  This information will be put in my own words using my own original methods.  I try my best to teach things in a clear and easy to understand way.  This method is based on what I have learned from teaching how to play guitar. 

The screen shots linked to a folder I created STRICTLY FOR CHORDIE MEMBERS. 

Please work with me while get a feel for posting the images and aligning the screen shots.  I want to provide the highest possible quality notation for my explanations. 

I think that I was going a little too far with the basics so lets start learning what I call the Major Scale formula.


Diagram 1

http://home.comcast.net/~musicman2006/pwpimages/c%20%20major%20formula%20on%20the%20first%20string%281%29.png


Diagram 2

http://home.comcast.net/~musicman2006/pwpimages/c%20major%20on%20the%20fifth%20string.png

Diagram 1 will most likely look familiar to most of you already.  Diagram 1 shows both guitar tab AND standard notation showing the C major scale (no flats or sharps) labled C D E F G A B C.   

The formula is W W h W W W h.  The W stands for whole step (two frets) and the h stands for a half step (one fret).  I notated the half steps in red just to help dfferentiate the Whole and half steps.

To be continued...

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#45 2009-07-17 07:50:36

StranSongs
Senior Member
From: Belfast
Registered: 2009-03-31
Posts: 330
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Hey come on now.

Give the guy a break.

Check out the links in your post above South paw and you'll see what he's actually posting - nothing's missing. It's a problem with the download into chordie.

Can we just live and let live. There are some awfully high horses out there. If someone wants to do something, let them get on with it. Jumping all over people for an initial mistake means that people who want to ask questions that could help them move forward are put off from asking them.

And I'm not singling out South Paw when I say that.


"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Davis

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#46 2009-07-17 09:29:31

Stonebridge
Senior Member
From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Registered: 2008-08-25
Posts: 182

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

SouthPaw41L wrote:

What the....????

A one lined treble cleff......(diagram 1)

A 3 string guitar tab with fret #'s on an invisible string..(diagram 1)

and a guitar fretboard without a B string....(diagram 2)


Your disclaimer at the beginning of this post really makes sense now.  This is definitely original and unlike any notation, standard or tab, that i have ever encountered....

The diagrams look fine to me. No idea what you are talking about. Do you have a computer glitch?

Last edited by Stonebridge (2009-07-17 09:33:23)

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#47 2009-07-17 10:14:32

jerome.oneil
Moderator
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: 2006-06-15
Posts: 3034
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

I'm a stickler for accuracy.  This has nothing to do with "jealousy" and everything to do with "promotion of accurate information."   Those that aren't may find that a bit prickly. 

I'd also like to say that my role here to date has not been in a moderator mode, it's been as a user and consumer of chordie content, just like yours.  The moderator role is purely to ensure that the discussion remains civil.  It's perfectly fine to disagree, discuss, and argue.  In fact, it's expected, and something that I encourage.

I think these diagrams are quite useful, and I'm pleased to see this thread turned in that direction.


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#48 2009-07-17 12:30:31

canudigit
Member
Registered: 2007-09-01
Posts: 71

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

Thanks for understanding and I truly appologize.  Thanks SouthPaw41L for copying and pasting the url in for some reason it doesn't show up correctly. 

Thanks to StranSongs for giving me a break here.  I just have to figure out why it look PERFECTLY in the url link that SouthPaw41L put up and now showing up correctly.  When I tested the post before uploaded everything looked good.  I will keep working on this until I get it.


jerome.oneil  Thanks for the clear explanation on where you are coming from.  I totally agree with you that It's perfectly fine to disagree, discuss, and argue.  In fact, it's expected, and something that I encourage.

I think these diagrams are quite useful, and I'm pleased to see this thread turned in that direction.

Thanks for that I realy apprecitate it and would enjoy your feedback to and help with this. 

The idea was I wanted to teach the major scale formula (like you did so nicley in your scale primer) but starting in the key of C since there are no # or b's that got us somewhat fired up in the first place smile

The way you did it was great! using the open E string, I just wanted to try with the key of C on one string.

It looks like we have something in common jerome.oneil.

In the next lesson I was going to show how those notes on the A string translate to the open position for practicing a basic open position C major scale.

I think the linear approach (all the scale notes on one string) is a great way to show and explain the major scale formula. 



Next I will get used to this BBCode so I can quote and such..

ALL coments and suggestions are welcomed, all I ask is that you please treat me with respect (even if we disagree) and I will do the same.

I hope you enjoy the screen shots (they take time to get looking clean and clear).

The screen shots will also help me to SHOW you all what I am trying to say with words (very difficult).

IMHO, they all work together nicely.

The bottom line is playing guitar and learning anything else and being able to apply what you learn is an added bonus.

I would like to know if you like to have all three types of notation (Guitar tab, standard notation AND the fretboard diagrams). 

Lastly I would like to change the thread name, but I don't know how smile.  Would it be best to dispose of this thread and copy the basic info into an appropriately named heading?

Thanks again

Steve

P.S  When I get home from work I will put up lesson 2 (translating the C major scale on the open A string to the open position for practice).

Last edited by canudigit (2009-07-17 12:35:25)

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#49 2009-07-17 12:43:27

jerome.oneil
Moderator
From: Bellevue, WA
Registered: 2006-06-15
Posts: 3034
Website

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

I think it's much easier to show using a keyboard, where you can break things down into white keys and black keys, to demonstrate how the key signature and the "number of sharps/flats" all make sense.  The fretboard can be a frightening thing sometimes!

Anyway, I'm all in favor of good diagrams and pictorial representations of stuff so if you want to keep generating those, feel free to keep posting them.


Someday we'll win this thing...

www.aclosesecond.com

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#50 2009-07-17 15:13:08

henryb
Senior Member
From: Lhanbryde
Registered: 2006-03-04
Posts: 204

Re: Colaborative Music Theory

SouthPaw41L wrote:

canudigit wrote:

DISCLAIMER:  This information will be put in my own words using my own original methods.  I try my best to teach things in a clear and easy to understand way.  This method is based on what I have learned from teaching how to play guitar. 

The screen shots linked to a folder I created STRICTLY FOR CHORDIE MEMBERS. 

Please work with me while get a feel for posting the images and aligning the screen shots.  I want to provide the highest possible quality notation for my explanations. 

I think that I was going a little too far with the basics so lets start learning what I call the Major Scale formula.


Diagram 1

http://home.comcast.net/~musicman2006/p … 281%29.png


Diagram 2

http://home.comcast.net/~musicman2006/p … string.png

Diagram 1 will most likely look familiar to most of you already.  Diagram 1 shows both guitar tab AND standard notation showing the C major scale (no flats or sharps) labled C D E F G A B C.   

The formula is W W h W W W h.  The W stands for whole step (two frets) and the h stands for a half step (one fret).  I notated the half steps in red just to help dfferentiate the Whole and half steps.

To be continued...

What the....????

A one lined treble cleff......(diagram 1)

A 3 string guitar tab with fret #'s on an invisible string..(diagram 1)

and a guitar fretboard without a B string....(diagram 2)


Your disclaimer at the beginning of this post really makes sense now.  This is definitely original and unlike any notation, standard or tab, that i have ever encountered....

Something wrong with your PC matey .

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