Topic: Guitar set up

I purchased an accoustic guitar 3 months ago, it cost £120 so pretty much a budget model.  I got it from a pretty reputable, well known music store, I spoke to the salesman and explained I was a total novice having only played for a few weeks on a borrowed classical.  He pulled a few different models out and played them all and advised the best one, I then played a few chords and that was it.

I am really happy with it and my progression has been pretty good, I've gone through the blistered fingers and I really feel everything is comng together, all I need now is a half decent voice and I'd even consider playing for family and friends.

Anyhow, I was scanning the forum here and came along a thread on adjusting the action but was certain that my "budget" model would not be adjustable, however when I looked onto the soundhole, sure enough there was the truss rod! 

I measured the action on the 12rd frett and it was 3.5mm so I decided to lower it a little.  I'm a bench joiner by trade so I felt confident in doing this but when I tightened the rod it was totally loose!  It finally started to "bite" after half a turn and eventually I got the action to 2.75mm.  I re-tuned and the guitar now sounds awsome, much crisper, clearer and my fingers are totally pain free, even the F and Bm are clear (It still takes me 10 secs to arrange my fingers tho!).

Anyway, my question is, should I have been advised of this when I purchased the guitar and should the shop have offered to have lowered it, it took me 5 mins taking extra care so I guess the shop could have done it in half that time?  I went to a shop rather than purchase online because I'd have thought I'd have been advised on the set up?

Epiphone EJ200  -  Epiphone SG400  -  Fender Strat Blacktop.
Blackstar HT 40 Club  -  Vox VT30 - Behringer ACX ultracoustic 1000

Re: Guitar set up

The guy at the shop should have told you the action could be dropped. I think he just thought wou were a novice and didnt want to take the time to inform you. Usually the shop offers to drop the action for free at the time of purchase, so he either thought you were happy with it or just wanted to get you in and out. You did it your self so more power to you. I guess action is a personal perference so maybe he thought it was okay.I dont know, sounds fishy

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Re: Guitar set up

It has been my experience that most music shops don't mention the setup when you buy.  I don't know if it's that they just don't want the extra work or what.  I have also set mine up myself.  Just as long as you turn it in slow increments.  It can make a big difference.  Good luck. It sounds as if you got it right the first time.  Good for you.

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I have finally found happiness in my life.  Guitars, singing, beer and camping.  And they all intertwine wonderfully.

Re: Guitar set up

Your right Bensonp, it makes a massive difference!  The thing is, the fact the there was no tension on the rod means it hadn't even been touched, literaly stringed, tuned and ready to ship out! I'd have thought an initial tighten to bring the action down a little would be an idea.  I'd expect that sort of service from an internet shop but not from a reputable dealer.

Never mind, sorted now!

Epiphone EJ200  -  Epiphone SG400  -  Fender Strat Blacktop.
Blackstar HT 40 Club  -  Vox VT30 - Behringer ACX ultracoustic 1000

Re: Guitar set up

You'd be surprised at the horror stories some "reputable" dealers will present for purchase in store. I went o the largest store in Glasgow and was horrified at the condition of the guitars on show.

Is anything really made up of zeros and ones??

Re: Guitar set up

Yea the shop should have offered to set it up properly for you! Just remember, when tightening/loosening the truss rod to only move in 1/8 turn increments every 5-6 hours to avoid any damage. Also be sure to check your intonation afterwards. A proper set up is more than just lower action via truss rod. Straightening the neck too much in order to lower the action can cause your intonation to go off, as well as other problems. To set it up properly you need to adjust the nut slots and bridge in conjunction with the truss rod to keep everything correct! It would probably still be a good idea to get a full set up from a professional or carry it back to them and they may do it for you for free since you bought it from them and it should have allready been done... -Pix

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]

Re: Guitar set up

Hmmm, yeah.  The truss rod is used not so much for setting the action, but for setting neck relief-- how much the neck flexes with string tension.  Once you set the neck relief with the truss rod, THEN you adjust the action at the bridge and/or nut.

To check the neck relief, you're going to need to put a capo at the first fret, and hold the low E string down at the fret where the neck joins the body.  Use a feeler gauge to check how high the string is at the seventh fret; a "regular" player will want it at about 0.013", if you play really heavy, you might double that.

You can find a good essay (with photos) here:  http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Ge … tradj.html

"There's such a fine line between genius and stupidity."
                              --David St. Hubbins

Re: Guitar set up

I believe that acoustic guitars get better with age and also that they take some time to "settle in".  I suspect that most guitars will need a set up after they have been played for a while (few weeks/month).  A shop should offer you a free set-up . . . but after the break-in period.  I wouldn't ask for this service for a cheeper guitar, I'd do it myself.  But on a higher end model, say $500 and up, I would expect the shop to provide this service.

Re: Guitar set up

Seems like some very helpful info posted here.
Guitarpix mentioned it being necessary to take your time when adjusting the truss rod.
Yesterday I bought an Epiphone FT 550 Exellente at a pawn shop. So beautiful (to me) and I got a case of the Love is blind I guess. I went completely through the purchasing process and got it home only to realize there was an extra screw in it! In the neck just where the neck starts to thicken was a hairline crack. The screw was countersunk and very well placed. There is no give to the effected area and it plays fine. It has  a beautiful sound that jumps out at you. After reading Guitarpix post I suspect someone got in too big a hurry adjusting.      Should I be really concerned about this? It plays very well, a non player would never know the screw didn't belong and I don't have that much invested. ($179) Which may or may not be too much. (Don't tell my wife if it is).

When the Power of Love overcomes The Love of Power the world will be a better place.

Re: Guitar set up

Hi Crevs    Dguyton is spot on here is another link to lower the action at the saddle
                 Lower the action then adjust neck relief if required ie any buzzing..

                 http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musicia … ion01.html

                 Hope it helps   ... Have fun Mark

Re: Guitar set up

Hey Deadstring,

Have you seen what Seasick Steve or even the venerable Willie Nelson are seen in public with? and I'm not talking partners here!

If it sounds good and you like it, it should be like everyone wishes they were like with their partners that "love is blind," if not deaf.

A useful thing I was told by a luthier named Rod Button is that there is 200lbs of pressure pulling the neck of a steel string perpendicular to the strings (think folding the neck in half at the heel) which is why steel strings have steel truss rods and the old classicals had wooden ones.

BTW Rod Button when he was starting out built these "boat back" guitars that used curved strips of wood something like a clinker built boat. The thickest part of the body was just behind the soundhole and was twice as thick as normal dreadnoughts. He even built acoustic basses that could be heard among the band WITHOUT being plugged in!!!

Sadly he went bust, but all I could afford at that time was a full set up on my old Fenix (by Young Chan) electro acoustic. That set up on a ply top made it sound ten times better and ten times easier to play.

Those Fenix guitars were great. Young Chan had an order from Ibenez to supply them with one-piece necks with their trademark sharkmouth pointy headstock but Y C got the long and short part the wrong way round so rather than have a big fire they married it to a semi curved wooden backed body they were doing for Charvel, result - Fenix rising from that ashes that weren't.

While I'm waffling (got back from Monday night gig and need to calm down) my new guitar was beautiful. I was thinking about a Jazz model and wanted a high action for tone and volume so when I saw that little number it was as your Epiphone - love at first sight and sound.

Everything was fine for 2 weeks then it developed a rattle, went back to the company, they said the pick up was incorrectly attached and repaired it and it came back to me. Joy was short lived as they'd done a set-up that lowered the action robbing it of tone and volume. It went back and they sent a number of new models from new shipment for me to choose from. It wasn't the guitar I'd paid for!

I paid for it in August, had the original for 2 weeks then had nothing until the following January but by holding out and sticking to my ground (with some very helpful advice from the Musicians Union legal dep't (the MU also give you £1000 equipment insurance and £10,000,000 public liability insurance as part of membership!!!)) I finally got what I'd paid for!

Some fantastic advice in this thread, thank you all!

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Re: Guitar set up

Thanks for the reminder KajiMa! Yes I have seen both.
I have went through the string changing process and all parts stayed in place and it came in tune very nicely. I had too fine tune a time or two but no more than I do with the Yamaha. I feel like it will out last me.

When the Power of Love overcomes The Love of Power the world will be a better place.

Re: Guitar set up

Okay, I have been reading this topic with great interest, however I have a question.  Since all guitars "feel" different (Taylor vs. Martin vs. Washburn) how does one know how they like their action set.  What i mean is that if I play my dad's Martin who has a high action and I like it but then play my Washburn with a lower action and I like it, how am I ever going to understand what is the perfect feel for me?  Is there a way that I could tell if loweing it by .25 cm will be better?  or to raise it?  I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer but curious on how others have figured it out.

1991 Washburn D12CE/N
2006 Taylor 412ce

"What I want is songs that echo. The stuff we're doing now is like somebody's bedsheets; spread 'em out, soil 'em, ship 'em out to laundry, you know? But our songs...I want us to be able to fold ourselves up in them forever...understand?  Words and music."

Re: Guitar set up

What action is right for you depends a lot on your playing style.  If you really bang away at the strings like a bluegrass flatpicker, you're going to want a higher action than if you do light jazz work.  If you're bluesy and bend a lot of strings, you're going to want higher action than if you're doing Chet-style clean fingerpicking.

Chet Atkins rule was to play what you normally play, and lower the action until you start to get buzz, then raise it until it stops.  That works best on a guitar like a Gretsch, with an easily adjustable bridge.  With a standard acoustic, it's much easier to lower the action than to raise it. 

My personal rule is not to sweat it.  If I like the way a guitar sounds and feels, and strings ain't buzzing, then the action is 'right.'

"There's such a fine line between genius and stupidity."
                              --David St. Hubbins

Re: Guitar set up

Well while we are on the topic, I have an old guitar which sounds pretty good but the action is really high and I would like to change it. However I dont want to do it at the expense of the sound.How much does changing the setup affect the sound?

Re: Guitar set up

deadstring wrote:

Seems like some very helpful info posted here.
Guitarpix mentioned it being necessary to take your time when adjusting the truss rod.
Yesterday I bought an Epiphone FT 550 Exellente at a pawn shop. So beautiful (to me) and I got a case of the Love is blind I guess. I went completely through the purchasing process and got it home only to realize there was an extra screw in it! In the neck just where the neck starts to thicken was a hairline crack. The screw was countersunk and very well placed. There is no give to the effected area and it plays fine. It has  a beautiful sound that jumps out at you. After reading Guitarpix post I suspect someone got in too big a hurry adjusting.      Should I be really concerned about this? It plays very well, a non player would never know the screw didn't belong and I don't have that much invested. ($179) Which may or may not be too much. (Don't tell my wife if it is).

Sounds more like it wasn't tightened enough (IMO). This would allow the neck to pull forward more than desired and cause seperation at the rear of the heel. If so there is most likely some dipping/cupping in the top toward the soundhole... Most often over tightening will cause either a hump in the fretboard where it overlaps the body or the cracks you sometimes see in that area of the top. Holding the guitar in playing position, if the truss rod is tightened it pulls the headstock back towards you...If it reaches the point where it won't go any further then something has to give, so the front secton (toward the soundhole) can tend to rise. 
  What you describe could be that or just that it simply had a weak neck joint and someone reinforced it with a screw... If it was done well it will probably be stable for quite some time and isn't too much to worry about... I would be carefull with the string tension I put on it though. I'd probably keep 12's or lighter on it just to be safe.
  The crack could be a potential problem though... Do you have pics?? It's hard to say without seeing it...

These are just my opinions.. I'm not a luthier!! I just dable and read allot smile -Pix

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]

Re: Guitar set up

Guitarpix I appreciate your  thoughts!
My wife aint a stripper either but she knows.....Never mind!
I have had all the strings off, long enough to clean it, and replace the strings with Martin lights. It came in tune very nicely and is staying in tune as well as the Yamaha does with new strings. It was a little flat (just out of zero on my tuner) the first time I checked it after restringing. Fine after that.    I  know the value dropped when the screw was installed but I don't really plan on selling it anyway. I love it! I just hope it holds together

First is a shot of the back. No visible damage but I spotted the reflection of my grandson's  First Act in the picture
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/crazyoldcoot/Apr032009-VID00008_2.jpg
Then the top of the neck as you are playing it.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/crazyoldcoot/Apr032009-VID00007_1.jpg
Then the back of the neck and the screw.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/crazyoldcoot/Apr032009-VID00006_1.jpg
And finally the bottom of the neck as being played. The damage is just about as hard to see in person as it is in this picture.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/crazyoldcoot/Apr032009-VID00005_1.jpg

When the Power of Love overcomes The Love of Power the world will be a better place.

Re: Guitar set up

Pretty guitar!! Love the Rosewood and flamed maple back!
Most necks are pieced at that location and I'd guess the glue joint just popped and someone screwed it. Should hold fine...Though it's not the recommended way to fix it. If by chance it ever gives you any trouble you should be able to get it fixed easily by a good repair tech. They can clean, reglue and clamp the joint..replace the screw with a hardwood dowel and a little tinted filler and you'd never know it was ever there. Just my .02! -Pix

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]

Re: Guitar set up

Guitarpix wrote:

Pretty guitar!! Love the Rosewood and flamed maple back!
Most necks are pieced at that location and I'd guess the glue joint just popped and someone screwed it. Should hold fine...Though it's not the recommended way to fix it. If by chance it ever gives you any trouble you should be able to get it fixed easily by a good repair tech. They can clean, reglue and clamp the joint..replace the screw with a hardwood dowel and a little tinted filler and you'd never know it was ever there. Just my .02! -Pix

That info is real good to know. Thanks again Pix.  I realize I sent guitar pics to Guitarpix!
smile

When the Power of Love overcomes The Love of Power the world will be a better place.