MENTALITY: Europe versus USA (Page 1 of 2)

Well, here in the states we have a clear division between our government and our churches.  Our constitution is clear that our government may make no laws establishing any religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.  Jefferson called this "a wall of separation between church and state."   What this has led to is a huge number of churches and faiths of all sorts springing up all over the country.   So as a nation, we have no church.  As a people, we do.  Primarily protestant varieties.  Baptists, Presbyterians,  Episcopalian, etc, along with a vast number of non-denominational churches.  I can go to Seattle and walk from a Mosque to a Jewish Temple to a Catholic Church.

There is a great African American gospel tradition in this country, mostly in the south.    This stems a lot from the blues and folk history that sprung during reconstruction after our civil war, and emancipation.   It's truly great stuff.  If I were God, that's where I'd go for my music. 

The UK has a state sponsored church, and they have no specific protection of religious freedom, although it is there in practical terms.

The state church is a huge difference.  We could not, (nor should not) have that here.

Well Doc, funny you should mention that.  The change in culture between church and expectations of the people and the interaction with the state was in our sermon this past week.

Jumping back a generation to my childhood, practically everyone went to some sort of weekly religious service.  Where I grew up in Appalachia, there weren't many non-denominational churches because most of the churches there were getting subsidized from the organization that had surpluses in the wealthier areas.  There just wasn't enough money in donations to keep a non-denominational church afloat in that area.  Not because people didn't give, but because even if they gave generously from their income, the average income was too slight. 

Now, Roman Catholic, Judaism, and various mainstream Protestant (United Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc.) religions were what we had.  Regardless of where one went, most fathers took their whole families every week.  Often there were mid-week services as well.  The Roman Catholics had Friday, Saturday, and Sunday services. 

Store were closed on Sunday as a matter of law, but also culture.  Every once in a while, someone would challange the blue laws and open on Sunday daring the authorities to come and fine them.  It wasn't necessary.  No one shopped.  It took care of itself.  The church family was a part of one's extended family.  I was in part raised by the ladies of the church.  The older boys had their clothes passed down to me, and my clothes were passed down to younger boys.  There was a whole network of moms who babysat for one another.  If I disobeyed Mrs. Coole for example, I was punished by Mrs. Coole without her worried about whether my Mom would approve, and then I was punished again by Mom.  Church family, church services, and time / monetary commitments to church were ingrained parts of the culture.  For a time, my father (not a professional pastor) preached at three churches a week because the congregations were so broke that they couldn't pay their pastors, who moved on to find jobs to feed their families.  Dad did this voluntarily.  He knew how to preach, he was known in the community as a God-fearing man, and they were glad to have him come and help.  I honestly cannot think of one family in my neighborhood that did not go to church regularly, and that everyone in the neighborhood knew where the others went. 

Today, things are different.  There is no concept of a communal "Sabbath."  My wife and I attend a non-denominational church, of which there are many in this area.  Granted, we live in what has been labled as the nation's wealthiest county.  While I'm not sure how that was calculated, where we live now is a far cry from the county I grew up in where the median income was well below the poverty level.  So there's room in people's budgets for supporting non-denominational churches.  But by and large, folks don't go to church.  Any service, regardless of religion or denomination.  My next door neighbors go to the Roman Catholic church, and on the other side they go to the Presbyterian church.  Of the other nine houses on our street, none of the people attend any kind of service.  Church attendance in the U.S., based on my EXTREMELY limited viewpoint is down overall.  Spiritual considerations are generally not given merit.  I recently turned down a large promotion at work.  It was because I felt that the job (I had been doing the job for about ten weeks "acting" in the position) interfered with my spiritual well-being.  Folks thought I was crazy.  It meant more money, so why didn't I take it?  My father's volunteerism, doing what he thought was the right thing to do, not gone entirely but surely no longer common.  But the idea of doing it to thank God for the blessing that he still had a job and to minister to all the folks that didn't (unemployment exceeded 25% in that place and time).  Well, I don't think that would be generally understood today. 

Now the thing that perplexes me is whether this is a bad thing.  Do I think that all those folks attending church in my youth were faithful?  No way.  Too many of my friends getting beaten or having to clean up drunken parents or bailing them out of jail.  Their behavior didn't match their professions of faith as demonstrated by going to church.  Today, those folks wouldn't bother going to church.  Somehow, I can't help but think that that's not necessarily a bad thing.  But what it does do is give cause for those who are faithful and the beneficiary of some sort of faith instruction to be evangelical and compassionate in nature to those who may not have the experience.  The church I attend now is mostly comprised of "new" Christians.  People who have come to the Christian faith as adults.  There are tattoos, shaved heads, and Harleys in the lot (even in the pulpit on occaission), former addicts, prostitutes, and felons.  This is a church that has taken advantage of the fact that not everyone is in church, and has brought church to the ones who need it and are open to its teachings.  The music is Pop or Alternative Rock in style.  It's very non-traditional.  And the teaching consists not of esoteric explorations of oblique Scripture, but down-to-Earth basic instruction in how to apply Scriptural principles to day-to-day living.  I think this is better somehow than using peer pressure to fill churches.  The folks sitting in our services want to be there.  They found a need fulfilled.  They're still learning what it means to be a Christian.  I don't know, but I somehow expect that there are a number of other churches in our area where the same story would apply. 

Anyway.  I think I got off topic, but that's the progression of religion in the U.S. from the eyes of an Appalachian hillbilly kid wondering whether he was going to eat that day grown to be a middle aged desk jockey with a paunch living in wealth compared when compared to his youth. 

Oh, as a kid it was the Methodist Hymnal and nothing else in church.  Now it's pop or alternative rock with Christian lyrics. 

- Zurf

I read some posts then some posts looked like chapters then turned into books themselves so I never read them all,
But just to get a wee mention here about church and government. If it was not for King William years ago we might still be run by the catholic church, which made too many laws before they were overthrown.
Too much involvement with royality and what their beliefs were. I am glad in a way we have a governemnt for that reason, But i would rather have a monarchy dictaing to us, Then, I do not believe we should have a monarchy when there is a governemnt. geez ohh, I have too many mixed up opinions.

The Church of Scotland and the church of england still have a say even though a very small say in some political matters, they are just not voiced out from the church to make it law. It is probably all corrupt backhanders back and forth.

I do believe that religion was needed many years ago as a method of control, and also it is good to teach good from bad and it comforts people that need it, but ahts about as far as I will accept religion anywhere. It is merely a label that people like to say they are even though if they follow their own books, no matter what the religion you will find there is a teeny weeny minority of people actually follow their religion to the book.

And I dont think it should be brought into music either, they sing every Sunday ( thats if they ever go to church to start with) they could keep it within those four walls, even if just to please me.lol

ok, I am going back to my silence on religion for a while again.
sorry to butt in.

mon' the lizards

Ken

I did not know that, and it is very interesting.  I had always just assumed there were Catholics, and Protestants of various flavors.  Must be the Irish Catholic in my blood. 

Last_rebel,

You left out Pentacostal holy rollers.

Rev. Bootlegger.
(not a fake title I' am actually ordained)

Right now one who is in a spiritual desert, I call it my Moses experience. When the needed is done in my life the Almighty will call me out as He did Moses to do what I have been call for. As for denomination I would tend to fall under Pentacostal. I had a street witinessing ministry (not to mention I was also a worship leader and played in a worship band)  and would go out on the streets and witness to people telling them my hope I have in Jesus Christ. There was some church politics involved that caused me to leave an A.O.G church I was in. So I am in a spiritual desert, but I know where my feet are planted on the rock of my salvation Jesus Christ. I am a very blessed and fortunate man not in treasures that I can spend on this earth but blessed beyond belief. When GOD speaks I listen and will share a word of knowledge to the person HE intended it for where ever HE chooses. 

As far as trinitarian  GOD is actually a trioun GOD. Let me explain it to you this way, you have one egg, the egg consist of three parts. Those parts are the yoke, the egg white (not white until you cook it) and the shell, three parts one egg. Father, Son & the Holy Spirit, three parts one Trioun GOD. Also what you mentioned the speaking of tongues it is not necessary proof of salvation but refers to Acts 2:2 where the persons in the upper room were blessed with cloven tongues of fire which was the Holy spirit. So not proof of salvation but proof of the Holy spirit. Your salvation comes by inviting Jesus into your heart to become you saviour. Confess with your mouth that your a sinner, believe in your heart that he died and rose again on the third day and ascended to the right hand of the Father and you shall have everlasting life (paraphrased).

In short (ha, ha) there is your answer.

Bootlegger.

First THANK YOU for all your answers.
I believe that here in my little country, the church & government are linked.
This is asking for trouble: some time ago, they decided to remove crosses in the classroom.
On the other hand, in the USA, because they are not linked, they have to provide themselves with $$, which can be a lot. Of course there are a lot of mysterious churches, asking a contribution only for the pocket of the "reverend"(exceptions of course). In England you can find, indeed, a lot of different churches.
In fact isn't it WEIRD, believing in Jesus, God and seeing all those churches.I thought that the "pelgrimfathers" came to the US, still an "empty country, because they had to leave OR die, just because the "SPANISH" ruled in almost entire Europe? It was also in that "time zone" you could get the deathpenalty just by catching a rabbit . It must have been a cruel time.
One of the major reasons of problems in the CATHOLIC" churches, is the obligation to stay single as priest, and I think this is also the last "only men" bastion.
I remember me very good that in 1985-1989, we went often visiting the priest who married us, he was responsible for young and "fresh" priests, that on a day they asked him, if homosexuality was allowed!!! He said NO, and from the 10 "going to be priests", only 4 remained.
WHY ARE WOMEN EXCLUDED TO BECOME A PRIEST, WHY THIS CELIBATE IS NEEDED.
The origin of CELIBATE started somewhere in the 9th century. Most of the priest came out powerful, noble families. If he should marry, and die years later, all the money went to the wife and children, but now: THAT MONEY WAS FOR THE CHURCH.
It is so difficult.

Holy  SH*T  thats a great list. There is no way around it.

SH*T HAPPENS, but it all comes out in the wash.

Have a great day...Badeye.

Que?

I may need to renew my interest this particular Christian faith!

yep thats the truth.... well here in texas anyhow. Theres a pentecostal belt between south jasper and kirbyville.... its interesting to me how different denominations have different food specialties. Pentecostals and baptists in particular being famous in these parts for thier feeds lol
  A baptist dinner on the grounds usually consists of a real nice ham and several unidentifiable casseroles, one pot of those tiny weenies, and a desert table crammed full of every imaginable pie cookie cake, cobbler etc.
Penetecosts tend to make a real good chicken and sausage gumbo.... and the peanut brittle of course. apparently to MAKE peanut brittle you have to have a certain cookin sheet and a large enough stove, and pentecostal church kitchens have them.

Bootlegger, let me first say that i totally agree with you're statements about the trinity (even though i prefer to call Him the Godhead; the word 'trinity' isn't in the Bible). "Behold Israel, the LORD thy God is one God.", but then he has three distinct forms. I also don't believe you need to speak tounges to get into heaven, but I do believe people still can (one of my major dissagreements with the baptist doctrine).
I was just stating what the majority of pentecosts (at least the ones I know) believe.
I am aware there are two kinds of pentecosts, Oneness and then the trinitarians.
Also the fact that you are 'ordaines' would mean to me that you're a genuine called minister, so dont give up on church. My father is a preacher and he always said that God respects faithfulness. Don't neglect your studies and/or sermon writing, and if possible find a place where you can comfortably attend church. The Lord will restore you if you are faithful to him. My father didn't preach for 10 years (he did lead music) after his divorce to my mother, even though it wasnt his fault, and then 3 years ago he was called to start a mission church. We've grown to a pretty average attendance of 40-50 people, are baptizing every month, and are happier in a church than we've ever been. What was probly the coolest was nearly half of our members were old friends we'd served with through the years, and hadnt seen in a long time.

All You Need is Love

Well in that list, I think I saw one error.  Agnostics should think that farts happen.

I like the way Hank Hannegraaf describes the disagreements between the various denominations.  He calls them disagreements "within the family."  There are certain faiths which call themselves Christian that don't seem to meet the basic criteria, though.  Don't ask me which ones specifically - it's not my job to judge. 

- Zurf