Topic: What's next?

I am writing a some notes rather a guide for myself in my learning progression. I want to write down all that I need to work on and some that are beyond me yet. I use the computer to guide me though this learning adventure and allot of times I don't want to sit at the computer and play, so I need something that I can take with me to the living room, Kitchen, ect.

I have started in the "book" most of the common chords. A, B, C, D, E, F, G, all major, minor and all 7th major chords. What others do you use and need attention in learning and practicing.

How much do split chords come into play early in the learning steps.

I hear allot of talk, reference to major 7th, what about major 9

OK so now that I have most of the chords used, whats next? Do I need to commit to memory where all the notes are on each string.

Start learning scales? Pentatonic, Lydian, Dorian, ect?

Chord progressions?

While learning chords I will working on changing chords.

So I guess my main question is I am trying to make a sort of cheat sheet/notepad for me to learn off of. What is the best outline to follow? In what order should one go to best maximize there time and efforts to learn, and not only learn but learn correctly?

I have been to ALLOT of learning on-line sites, anyone who has linked one I went and checked it out and gave its due attention. Now I am just trying to get all that information in one place, MY notebook.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Re: What's next?

You can do a lot with major minor and seventh chords. make sure you know what a sus chord is

on lead start with the pentatonic scale and then the major scale

but you also need to think about what kind of music you want to play

if blues or jazz then your 9ths may come in handy

however if you are going for straight ahead rock then think about powerchords instead

good luck

Re: What's next?

A major 9 is a major 7.    What you want to learn next is chord progressions, and how to build them.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: What's next?

jerome.oneil wrote:

A major 9 is a major 7.    What you want to learn next is chord progressions, and how to build them.

Huh? hmm

I've seen a chord chart for a Major 9th and it looks nothing like a Major 7th. Or maybe I'm looking at the wrong chart. wink

Re: What's next?

What it looks like is irrelevant.  What matters is how its derived.

All 9s, 11s, 13s , etc, are variants of 7 chords.  You build a seventh by playing some variant of the 7th for that scale.  flattened for dominant, straight major for the major, etc.  Adding the 9th or the 13th doesn't make it a different chord, those notes just add texture to the 7th.  If you stop playing the note that makes it the 9th, you're playing a 7th.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: What's next?

A7 = x02020 notes played are A E G C# and E
A9 = x02423 notes played are A E B C# and G

Pick up your guitar and play each of these chords. The difference is not irrelevant. The notes are not the same. They may be in continuum with a sequence but there is a noticable diffence in the sound of the chord. Example,  If I need to play  A7 in a song A9 will work , and it will , in most cases, enhance the song. But if I need to play A9 in a song and play A7 it will , again in most cases, sound empty and lacking.

Give everything but up.

Re: What's next?

Don't confuse an artifact of how you fret on the fretboard with how the chord is derived.  In your example the last E is irrelevant to the chord.  We'll use dom7ths (flat 7th) as that's more common, but it doesn't change anything.

A7 = A C# E G
A9 =  A C# E G B   

All you're doing to make a 9 is add the next step in the triad to a 7th.  That's why it's a 7th.  Same thing for an 11.

A11 = A C# E G B D#

So all extended chords are based on a 7th of some kind.  They're generally interchangable as well.  If I'm playing something and I come to an 13th and I don't know how to fret it, I can throw in the 7th and it works just fine.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: What's next?

jerome.oneil wrote:

Don't confuse an artifact of how you fret on the fretboard with how the chord is derived.  In your example the last E is irrelevant to the chord.  We'll use dom7ths (flat 7th) as that's more common, but it doesn't change anything.

.

No, no, no brother dude the last is not irrelevant. The last E is the accent on the chord. It's the final note that gives the chord its distinction. And I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff but if I play an A7 when I'm supposed to play A13 on , lets say Steely Dans' Deacon Blues, bottom line, it's gonna sound lacking and incomplete. Again here the note that changes the A7 to A13, the one you say is irrelevent, is the accent note, the note that differentiates one hearing the song and saying, "hey i know that song" or not playing the accent and have people say " what in  the hell is he playing?"

again my archaic artifact chords;
A7 = x02020<accenting defining final note in chord sequence
A13=575657<this little B here seperates, accents, and defines the chord
                          and if the person playing beside me doesn't play the specific
                           chords I chart for them, I find someone who does.

Give everything but up.

Re: What's next?

The E that your talking about makes it an inversion.  You've flipped the chord from "bottom up"

A C# E

to "top down"

"E A C#"

You make it a 7th by adding the G (G# for maj7, G for dom7).  Then you add the rest of the notes in sequence to that.

Point being, you build extended chords on 7ths.   That's why a 9 and a 11 and a 13 are all 7th chords.

That this is a guitar and not a keyboard is really where we're breaking down.  You can demonstrate this fully on the keyboard, but it's hard to do on the fretboard.   Its the case for most theory, I think.  Anyway, for example the A13 in Deacon Blues (great choice, BTW.  I love that band) is, when you build it out properly.

A13 = A C# E G B D F#

So what do we notice about that chord?  It's got all seven notes of the scale in it.  I defy you to play it on your guitar.  smile   

When we're playing extended chords on the fretboard, we're almost always making a compromise on the chord itself.  We won't be playing the entirety of the chord, as it's simply impossible to do.  This is always the case with 13s, as there are simple too many notes in them.  (Unless you have a 7 string guitar, in which case, I bow to you, Sir.)

Just with your example, though, what makes the chord a 13 isn't the B, but the F#.   A 13 is the addition of the 6th note in the scale (the 13th if you walk up another octave).   The B is what makes it a 9.  In all cases, you're playing the G, as it's the 7th.  Because 13s are 7s, too.  big_smile

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: What's next?

jerome.oneil wrote:

The E that your talking about makes it an inversion.  You've flipped the chord from "bottom up"

A C# E

to "top down"

"E A C#"

You make it a 7th by adding the G (G# for maj7, G for dom7).  Then you add the rest of the notes in sequence to that.

Point being, you build extended chords on 7ths.   That's why a 9 and a 11 and a 13 are all 7th chords.

That this is a guitar and not a keyboard is really where we're breaking down.  You can demonstrate this fully on the keyboard, but it's hard to do on the fretboard.   Its the case for most theory, I think.  Anyway, for example the A13 in Deacon Blues (great choice, BTW.  I love that band) is, when you build it out properly.

A13 = A C# E G B D F#

If you're saying that my A13( 575657) is incorrect then your dispute is not with me but with Donald Fagen , Walter Becker, Larry Carlton, Lee Rienour, Wayne Shorter, and Chuck Rainey straight out of the Steely Dan songbook(Aja). I  have, and continue to learn a great deal of my theory from these guys and I mean you no ill will nor disrespect but I'm gonna give more legitimacy to Fagen, Becker and friends than you. I admire your passion nontheless.
  I don't think you and I could co-exist in a band together. (haha)

Give everything but up.

Re: What's next?

q522 did you get all that? kinda makes your head spin like some home assembly project but since i respect both views i will chart the chords and attempt the fingerings thanks guys for the info

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: What's next?

Now I do realize that theory is important and I work a bit on studying something new every week, but damn, it seems like you theorists want to take all the fun out of music. Reminds me of first year college calculus, and I don't ever want to relive that experience!

There should be some kind of rule, like the sum of the chord fingering cannot exceed a total of 10 or something (barre chords excluded), I mean what the hell is an A13 (575657), LOL smile

Rule No. 1 - If it sounds good - it is good!

Re: What's next?

SouthPaw41L wrote:

If you're saying that my A13( 575657) is incorrect then your dispute is not with me but with Donald Fagen , Walter Becker, Larry Carlton, Lee Rienour, Wayne Shorter, and Chuck Rainey straight out of the Steely Dan songbook(Aja). I  have, and continue to learn a great deal of my theory from these guys and I mean you no ill will nor disrespect but I'm gonna give more legitimacy to Fagen, Becker and friends than you. I admire your passion nontheless.
  I don't think you and I could co-exist in a band together. (haha)

They may have it right, but your songbook may have it wrong.  Songbooks are notoriously poor when it comes to transposition.

But don't take it by rote.  Learn what makes a 9 or an 11 or a 13, and then check it yourself.  The theory is the same no matter what instrument your playing.  It's the application that matters.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: What's next?

topdown wrote:

I mean what the hell is an A13 (575657), LOL smile

Glad you asked!  smile

A 13 chord is an extended 7th, derived by adding the next appropriate member of the triad.

So for example, if we take the A major scale, for two octaves.


A B C#  D  E F#  G#  A  B  C#  D  E F#  G#  A

Now lets assign each note of that two octave spread a number.  The first you'll know, as they're the common "Nashville numbers."



A B C#  D  E F#  G#  A  B  C#  D  E    F#  G#  A
1 2  3    4   5 6    7     8  9  10   11 12  13   14  15

So, to build a normal major chord, we take the 1, 3, and 5 notes of the scale.

A  C#  E

To build a 7 (or dom7) we take the flattened 7th (maj7 would be the unmodified 7th.)

So A7 is

A  C#  E  G

Want to build a 9?  Simply add the 9th note (which is really the 2, but we're another octave up now).

A  C#  E  G  B

11th?  Piece of cake.

A  C#   E  G  B  D

13th?  No problem.  You know what to do.   At this point, you've got every note in the scale in the chord.  That's why you never see an A15 chord.  The "15" is already represented in the chord, so you'll be repeating yourself.

A  C#  E  G  B  D  F#

In all of those cases it's the 7th that sets the tonality of the chord.  (dom, maj, diminsihed, etc).  The addition of the extended notes merely adds color to them.  It doesn't change the fact that they're still 7ths.

So thats what the hell a 13 is.   big_smile

Theory is what makes music fun.  It's the glue that holds the notes together to make music.  Random notes is just noise.  Put them in some kind of framework, and you get art.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: What's next?

jerome - thank you very much for that clear and concise explanation. I don't believe that could could be explained any better and of course it makes perfect sense.  I printed it out to use for my "theory lesson of the week"!

Rule No. 1 - If it sounds good - it is good!

Re: What's next?

Jerome, I understand what you're saying, but... 

The way I learned it, is that there are 5 (and only 5) 7th chords:  Major 7, minor 7, dominant 7, diminished 7, and minor 7b5.  That's all the ways that you can make a 7th with 4 fretting fingers.

Now, I would agree with you that 9th's, 11th's and 13th's are "built on" 7th's in the same way that the 7th's are "built on" majors: you include the previous added notes.  But I would disagree with the terminology that 9th's etc. "are just" 7th's.

I also know that we both mean the same thing, it's just a difference in how we choose to say it.  You say Tomato, I say tomahto. smile

"There's such a fine line between genius and stupidity."
                              --David St. Hubbins

Re: What's next?

Here's a much easier way to understand, apply, and put to direct use playing chords, many different ways, the way the original composers intended them to be played. The diffeneces in 7ths, 9ths, 11th, and 13ths are clearly shown in chord form with a lot less wordage;

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/

Give everything but up.