Topic: the use of reverb

hi,

just wanted to tell someone about this;

i was watching a tv prog called "classic albums" which was about the making of paul simon's "graceland"

they dissected the tracks and showed how the songs were written and recorded, the shocker for me was a bass part on "call me al" [i think it was] they muted all the other tracks and played the bass part, it had reverb on! now i've always recorded bass flat or maybe a little chorus, but i was knocked out by the use of reverb on a bass track!

so question;  is reverb used by other more experienced chordians?

if so, all the time?

or just for special stand out parts?

or just on certain songs?

any and all suggestions and advice welcome

phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.

Re: the use of reverb

Are you saying the reverb was actually recorded on the track, rather than the bass being recorded dry? That is unusual. It's normal to record dry and add reverb or other effects at mix down. Once you record reverb on a track you can't get rid of it. Did the bass guitarist use reverb when playing, maybe?
As for using reverb generally with bass guitar (or other bass instruments), personally I would not normally use any, or maybe a tiny amount. Too much can swamp the mix. You would need some sort of EQ to redress the balance.
Just my personal views here.

Re: the use of reverb

should mai, buttie?

yeah i'm with you here, when they played back the track [obviously it was recorded 20? years ago] the reverb was there, it could have been recorded on but i doubt that as they normally like to add FX later in the mix, and it was on tape. any way if you've got sky have a look at anytime player, it should still be on there...

phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.

Re: the use of reverb

Using reverb on a bass when recording is fine it depends on the sound your looking for,a lot of early Beatles and some later songs use reverb I think it all comes down to the key your playing in and if you want a brighter sound on the bass the reverb accents the mid range of the bass smile

"Growing old is not for sissies"

5 (edited by arkady 2009-01-18 19:39:02)

Re: the use of reverb

Hi Phill
I do use reverb a fair amount in instrumental pieces as it's great way of bringing prolonged depth to various instruments.
The use of reverb in vocals can be somewhat overpowering but can help a poor singing voice (writes from experience  here smile 
I think basically there's no hard and fast rules here and playing with FX on different tracks is all part mixing process and what sounds good to the composer.
Ark

Re: the use of reverb

Da iawn phill.
Graceland was released in 1986. Back in 1986 I had my own 8-track studio, tape based of course, and various digital reverb units. There would be no earthly reason why reverb should be recorded onto a track even then. Any reverb could be added at mixdown. To record it onto a track would have been considered "incorrect" and totally unnecessary.
I once remember, before I knew better, recording a vocal and adding reverb at the time onto the track. It sounded ok then as the cheap reverb I had was all I could afford.
A year later, when I wanted to remix the tape with my new expensive reverb unit, I was stuck with the god-awful reverb I had put there a year previously. There was no way I could get rid of it. The lesson was, and still is, record tracks dry. With current technology there is no need whatsoever to do otherwise.
re the Paul Simon track. It baffles me.

Re: the use of reverb

I'm in agreement with Stonebridge on this issue, as I am on most of his contributions. I compare the use of reverb in music to the use of salt in food. One can always add salt when a dish is complete but one can rarely(if ever) take the salt away upon completion of said dish. Record dry, add effects in the final mix(s)......

Peace and Guitar and Just a Tad of Reverb,
SouthPaw41L

Give everything but up.

Re: the use of reverb

I think the use of effects creates the sound for example overdive,sustain,delay,flanging,compression,tremelo,waw waw and yes reverb smile

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: the use of reverb

Who played the bass ? Simon used a lot of Black SA musicians on the album for their specific sound. I was involved in a lot of discussions at the time over whether the album should be boycotted, but it was agreed that using the musicians didn't mean he endorsed apartheid. Could it have been a Soweto thing ?

"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understandin' ."    Elvis Costello

Re: the use of reverb

The controversy came from Los Lobos session sax player Steve Berlin.  Mr. Berlin alledged that Paul stole the song from jam sessions they shared in the past. However, Paul Simon gave the sax credits on Graceland to Alex Foster(alto) and Lenny Pickett(tenor). The bass duty credits went to Paul Simon( 6 string bass) and Bakithi Kumalo(bass guitar).

Here's a brief summary of the aftermath;

Controversy
The group Los Lobos appear on the last track, "All Around the World or The Myth of Fingerprints." According to Los Lobos's saxophone player Steve Berlin, Simon stole the song from Los Lobos, giving them no songwriting credit.

"It was not a pleasant deal for us. I mean he [Simon] quite literally — and in no way do I exaggerate when I say — he stole the songs from us... We go into the studio, and he had quite literally nothing. I mean, he had no ideas, no concepts, and said, "Well, let's just jam." ...Paul goes, "Hey, what's that?" We start playing what we have of it, and it is exactly what you hear on the record. So we're like, "Oh, ok. We'll share this song." ...A few months later, the record comes out and says "Words and Music by Paul Simon." We were like, "What the f*** is this?" We tried calling him, and we can't find him. Weeks go by and our managers can't find him. We finally track him down and ask him about our song, and he goes, "Sue me. See what happens."
Paul Simon answered: "I just said at this stage I don't care whether the album comes out without Los Lobos on it. I was getting really tired of it -I don't want to get into a public slanging match over this, but this thing keeps coming up. So we finished the recordings. And three months passed, and there was no mention of 'joint writing.' The album came out and we heard nothing. Then six months passed and Graceland had become a hit and the first thing I heard about the problem was when my manager got a lawyer's letter. I was shocked. They sent this thing to my manager, not me. If there was a problem they could have contacted me direct, they've got my home number, we talked a lot. If you ask me it was a lawyer's idea. You know, 'the records a hit, and there's $100,000 in it.' They had nine months from the recordings to talk to me about all this, but I heard nothing. And its still not sorted out because they still keep bringing it up - I heard they'd done this interview for you. I don't want to get into a public slanging match with them, because I really like their music." 


Release and aftermath
Graceland was Paul Simon's highest charting album in the U.S. in many years, reaching #3 in the national Billboard charts, receiving a certification of 5xPlatinum by the RIAA and eventually selling over 14 million copies, making it the singer's most commercially successful album. Critics welcomed its eclectic mix of sounds and broad, quirky subject matter and it regularly shows up in critic polls and "recommended" lists. The album also helped to draw worldwide attention to the music of South Africa.

In the Graceland Classic Albums video, Simon states that he considers the title track the best song he has ever written. A popular music video starring Simon and Chevy Chase was made for the hit song "You Can Call Me Al". Simon toured the album extensively, featuring many of the artists from the album in addition to exiled South Africans Hugh Masekela and Miriam Makeba. Two concerts in Harare, Zimbabwe, were filmed in 1987 for release as "The African Concert". The audience was a multi-racial mix with many travelling from SouthAfrica."

edited to add- from Wikipedia 1-18-09  (5PM EST app.)
edited to subtract (f-word)- 1-18-09 (6 PM EST app.)

Give everything but up.

Re: the use of reverb

funnily enough, when i saw the programme, i assumed that paul had shared credits with the band as it was plainly stated in the prog that he had no concept or pre-written material before the sessions in south africa, and that he listened, cut and messed about with the tracks before writing words and melodies. it was a retrospective and there seemed to be no animosity between them.
i think it was a bit off of mr simon not to give credit to the guys as a jam session includes everyone, as everyone contributes to it, maybe he has compensated them since?

back to the original subject...

the use of FX during a session can be counter-productive, as once they're on they're on...
but surely FX like sustain or fuzz helps with the feel of the song during recording? i can't imagine "smoke on the water" recorded "dry" or the solo at the end of "romeo and juliet" [dire straits] with-out the echo.
as for bass...definitely in the mix

i like this discussion...i'm learning so much

phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.

Re: the use of reverb

SouthPaw41L wrote:

I'm in agreement with Stonebridge on this issue, as I am on most of his contributions. I compare the use of reverb in music to the use of salt in food. One can always add salt when a dish is complete but one can rarely(if ever) take the salt away upon completion of said dish. Record dry, add effects in the final mix(s)......

Peace and Guitar and Just a Tad of Reverb,
SouthPaw41L

The effects here I am referring here to in this particular instance are the reverbish ones, and others that may need a tad bit of tweeking in the final mix. Less is most always better. It is easier to add than take away. Do you all(some, any) somewhat understand where I'm coming from? 

edited to add 1-18-09 (app 8:25PM EST)
edited to remove 1-18-09 (app 10:30PM EST)

Give everything but up.

Re: the use of reverb

You all (some many) are entitled to your collective opinions but I like to record with a little reverb when I AM singing it sounds good and I feel better singing I dont like a dry microphone unless its at a pta meeting

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: the use of reverb

Russell_Harding wrote:

You all (some many) are entitled to your collective opinions but I like to record with a little reverb when I AM singing it sounds good and I feel better singing I dont like a dry microphone unless its at a pta meeting

The dry microphone problem is solved by feeding your reverb back though the monitor/headphones while recording the vocal but not onto the track being recorded. Of course, that may or may not be possible depending on the recording system and desk you are using. You need good auxiliary routing facilities from the main inputs.
The result is you can hear your voice while recording with as much reverb as you want, without laying the reverb down onto the track.

Re: the use of reverb

Stonebridge I understand what your saying and at present I am recording a CD at Trax Studios in Wisconsin they use Pro Tools and the procedure you describe must be what the engineer is doing or something similar,at home I do not have the equipment to facilitate this procedure (not yet anyway) thanks for the explanation smile

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: the use of reverb

at a guess, some of you out there have professional equipment, which can add FX in the mix. there are one or two of us less fortunate ones out here that can't afford such gear. all the recordings i produce are for demo purposes, not professional, as russ says "it gets done professionally, by professionals in the studio...that's why they get the big bucks...maan" [not exactly what he said, but that's the inference i got]

i also like to have some reverb on my mike during recording...but not on my bass guitar!


phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.