• From: NH
  • Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 66

Topic: measures not working out right

I was playing around with 3/4 time the other day while i was between classes and i came up with a melody that sounded pretty good, but when I put it to paper and later to the TAB editor on the computer it would not work out right.

I know something is just that something is wrong but I don't know what.

Here is a screen-shot of it (I don't know how to attach it as a file)
http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/40131/2541757340102713055S600x600Q85.jpg
It's for mandolin but that doesn't matter. its the counting that is askew.

What is the difference between 3, 8th notes and an 8th note triplet? do i need the triplet at the ends measures 1,3,& 5?
My girlfriend was the first to notice it being wrong, but she says they never used anything but 16th triplets when she played sax in band.



thanks
AW

Mandolin>guitar

2 Reply by Stonebridge (edited by Stonebridge 2008-10-17 07:19:26)

  • From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
  • Registered: 2008-08-25
  • Posts: 182

Re: measures not working out right

A triplet is 3 notes played in the time of two. In other words, faster than 3 straight notes. This is why it doesn't sound right. The measure needs 6 8th-notes to be complete. (3 quarternotes)
The triplet, as it takes up the time of only 2 notes, means the measure only has 5 8th-notes, effectively.
So, in the example you give, there is no need for the triplets in the 1st and 3rd measures. The notes should be straight 8th notes ("quavers" for UK members wink )
I can't quite make out what is there in the 5th measure.
Could you say, if that first note is a 16th with a dot?
The measure would work if the first note was a quarternote with a dot, followed by an 8th, followed by the triplet.
The measure looks strange. More info needed on that one, please.
Chris

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 66

Re: measures not working out right

that measure starts with 16th tied to an 8th. no dot.


16th and 8th note triplets take different amounts of time right? 16th would take up one beat 8th would be 2 beats?


do the 1st and 3rd still equal the right number of beats to work?


thanks

Mandolin>guitar

4 Reply by Stonebridge (edited by Stonebridge 2008-10-18 07:21:10)

  • From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
  • Registered: 2008-08-25
  • Posts: 182

Re: measures not working out right

In the first measure as you have it now, the triplet group takes up one (quarternote) beat. The dotted quarternote at the start takes up one and a half (quarternote) beats. (A dot lengthens a beat by 50%) So total beats in the 1st bar is 2 and a half. The measure must have 3 beats to be correct. The 3/4 time signature means 3 (quarternote) beats to a measure.
The same applies to measure 3.
Measure 5:
It doesn't have enough notes/beats to make a complete measure of 3 beats.
Without hearing the rhythm you want there, it is difficult to know what the correct notation is.
I can only say that either there is a note missing or that one or other of the notes should be longer.

A group of three 8th note triplets takes up one beat in your example. One beat is a quarternote and there are three beats to a measure.

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: measures not working out right

Think of it in terms of playing it in 6/8, rather than 3/4.   Write it out that way and it might clear up your confusion.   

The triplets are played in one beat.  If you're used to the "One and two and..." counting for eighths, and "one eh and ah" for sixteenths, try "one lol ly" for your triplets.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

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  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 66

Re: measures not working out right

thanks, ill try to correct it tonight and re post to see if i have it right.

Mandolin>guitar
  • From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
  • Registered: 2008-08-25
  • Posts: 182

Re: measures not working out right

jerome.oneil wrote:

Think of it in terms of playing it in 6/8, rather than 3/4.   Write it out that way and it might clear up your confusion.   

The triplets are played in one beat.  If you're used to the "One and two and..." counting for eighths, and "one eh and ah" for sixteenths, try "one lol ly" for your triplets.

Mm. Not so sure that will help. It's true that 6/8 has 6 quarternotes per measure (same as 3/4) but 6/8 has two beats to a measure - two groups of three - whereas 3/4 has 3 beats to a measure - three groups of two.
If lone-woodwose is thinking of 3 beats to a measure (he says he is), each beat subdivided into 3, he would be better using 9/8 and converting the triplets to straight 8th-notes.
The best solution I can see to this is to listen to the rhythm he is trying to notate. Then we can all suggest an answer with more certainty. Any way to do this on here?

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 66

Re: measures not working out right

I will try to use my digital camera, see how it comes out.

here is the best recording I can do.
http://good-times.webshots.com/video/30 … good-times


after listening to it a few times I think I dont think I should use the dotted quarter, just use a normal quarter note.

Mandolin>guitar

9 Reply by Stonebridge (edited by Stonebridge 2008-10-18 19:04:18)

  • From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
  • Registered: 2008-08-25
  • Posts: 182

Re: measures not working out right

lone-woodwose wrote:

I will try to use my digital camera, see how it comes out.

here is the best recording I can do.
http://good-times.webshots.com/video/30 … good-times


after listening to it a few times I think I dont think I should use the dotted quarter, just use a normal quarter note.

I think so too.
The best I can transcribe it, you are playing
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/BetaEpsilon2/notes.jpg

Hope this helps.
It's the nearest I can get. The notation is always going to be a close approximation.

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 66

Re: measures not working out right

I think you have it right except for the 5th measure, but I changed it up a little also.

thanks for the help.

alden

Mandolin>guitar
  • From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
  • Registered: 2008-08-25
  • Posts: 182

Re: measures not working out right

lone-woodwose wrote:

I think you have it right except for the 5th measure, but I changed it up a little also.

thanks for the help.

alden

No problem, alden. I actually enjoy the challenge. smile
The 5th measure is approximate. It's impossible to make notation reflect exactly what you play.
If the first note of the 5th measure is meant to be shorter than I've notated, change it to a 16th note. Then to keep th correct number of beats in the measure, change the second note to a dotted 8th note. That is probably nearer to what you are playing.
Good luck.

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: measures not working out right

Stonebridge wrote:
jerome.oneil wrote:

Think of it in terms of playing it in 6/8, rather than 3/4.   Write it out that way and it might clear up your confusion.   

The triplets are played in one beat.  If you're used to the "One and two and..." counting for eighths, and "one eh and ah" for sixteenths, try "one lol ly" for your triplets.

Mm. Not so sure that will help. It's true that 6/8 has 6 quarternotes per measure (same as 3/4) but 6/8 has two beats to a measure - two groups of three - whereas 3/4 has 3 beats to a measure - three groups of two.

What he's asking is "How do you play triplets in a time signature of 4.    In 3/4, those triplets have the same rhythmic feel, measure for measure, as eighth notes in 6/8.    You can write straight eighth notes in a 6/8 time as tripplets in 3/4.    That helps a lot in understanding what is happening rhythmically.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 66

Re: measures not working out right

Actually that does, I never thought of it that way but your right. Unfortunately I normally do just the opposite of what you told me to. when i play 6/8, I change it to 3/4 so i can think about it easier.

Mandolin>guitar
  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: measures not working out right

lone-woodwose wrote:

Actually that does, I never thought of it that way but your right. Unfortunately I normally do just the opposite of what you told me to. when i play 6/8, I change it to 3/4 so i can think about it easier.

I like to go the other way because you tend to play at a slower tempo in 6/8, so it's a little easier to count stuff out.

Whatever works for ya!

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website