Topic: UK and Canadian Patients...

Over here in the U.S., there's a big debate going on about how health care is administered and funded.  I think it's a good thing that this discussion is taking place.  Some groups are claiming how bad the rest of the world's systems are, giving individual horror stories about long waits and missed diagnoses and hoping that people will follow the logical error of applying the specific to the general.  And also forget that those same issues happen right here in the U.S.

However, something just doesn't wash.  If things were so bad in the UK and Canada (the most often cited places), then why aren't UK and Canadian citizens screaming and dying like crazy?  When I look at the stats, the U.S. is less healthy overall, has more chronic problems like obesity and diabetes, higher infant mortality, etc.  Something just doesn't wash.  The same groups claim that Canadians are coming to the U.S. as an example of how bad their system is, but U.S. citizens with a preference for alternative medicine are going to South American and Caribbean countries and to India for treatments, so that some people travel across borders for medical care doesn't say anything meaningful. 

I'd like to know more about how the health care systems work in Canada and the UK, from Canadians and citizens of the UK who have actually experienced your health care delivery and not from any Political Action Committee on a mission.  I won't use the information except to inform myself. 

I don't want this to be a political debate about what's right, what ought to be done, whose going to do what, who should pay for what, private vs. public, or anything along those lines.  Please, please, please avoid anything other than factual descriptions of how a sick or injured person might go about receiving medical treatment.  For instance, imagine you broke your leg when out walking or that your child is running a fever and needs antibiotics to address an infection.  What would happen?  How long would it take? 

If you don't want to reply on the main board to keep it clean of anything that even dances around the skirt tails of politics, please reply by e-mail. 

Thanks.

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Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

Sorry I couldn't read all of your post Zurf - the only reason I am here, alive and able to write this is that I fought the NHS tooth and nail, so many mis-diagnoses, mistreatments and scars - internal and external - and conditions that I didn't have when 'treatment' started that I will probably have for life!!!

I'm the wrong person to have begun reading your post. Sorry!

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Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

well no matter if it is private care or NHS humans being humans will always make mistakes. It doesnt make a service better here if you go private.
Going private here just means you can jump the queue for an operation.

The NHS is a very good thing I think. The money is taken from taxes that the government take of every working person.
Some see this as because they pay their taxes they should get treatment whenever they like and in a way yes they should but with such a big waiting list it is not always possible.

I get my jaw fixed on the NHS free. It took about 2 months after seeing my Gp to getting an appointment in the facial dept of the hospital which was not too good as I was in agony that long. All in from when my jaw locked and crunch and I could not open it wide enough to eat abanana it took about 15 months. If I had done it privately I think I was told it would have cost roughly £2000 but would have just cut the time down by 2 months ( the time I spent waiting)

Nhs also does dental treatment here which is harder to find an NHS dentist as they are all opting out to go private.
I wish I still had my receipts from a few years ago. ( the reason my jaw was knackered was after a visit or three from the dentist)
I had to get root canal tratment. I got this on the NHS. All in it still cost me about £150. If it were private it would be £400 or thereabouts.
To get a filling on the NHS it costs £15-£30. Privately it is £ 65-£80.
So not all NHS servces are free to the working man.

All NHS treatment for everyone under 16 years old is free.
Dentists that opted out of the NHS will still take kids under 16 on NHS. I tihnk they are forced to do this.

I would always support the NHS but right now it is becoming a shambles a bit because of cut backs and forcing the managers of the trust funds to make targets. i.e. to get waiting queues down.
I have got my nose fixed now but about 10 years ago when i was on the waiting list I got referred to another hospital. I found out later so many that got referred to this hospital got told the same thing. " we recommend not to operate". So the ymanaged to get their queues down quite a bit, even though this year I was told I really should get it done. I got it done and I am so glad I got it done.

has its good and bad points, but so has the private sector. Just because you pay it doesnt mean ye get better treatment as most times you will get the same surgeon, just means you get to see him quicker.
Also my wife who is a nurse has witnessed folk waiting on the NHS list in hospital. Getting told they would be there for 3 weeks before getting operated on. They pay and hey presto, all of a sudden there is room by the same surgeon in 7 days time.
Money comes forsit to the NHS trust. Good or bad? both I think


Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

I have found over the last few years the NHS has become a lesser reflection of what it was. Consecutive Conservative governments have tried their hardest to rid itself of this money pit, and even the Labour government has tried cutting back, preferring to spend our taxes on saving banks and funding unwinable wars.

here's an example;

you phone up your local GP surgery to ask for an appointment, they tell you that all the appointments for today have been filled, so you say OK, can I make one for tomorrow, they say phone back in the morning about 8.30....
so you phone back at 8.30, but you cant get through!!! so you keep trying. then at 9.00, you get an answer and they say....you guessed it, sorry all today's appointments have gone....

You eventually get to see your doctor, he says what's wrong, and you say nothing, I've recovered now waiting for an appointment!   You get the idea?

My wife suffered with abdominal problem's for about 6 months and lost half her body weight before the surgeons  decided that there was something wrong. They eventually removed half her bowel and a lump the size of a tennis ball. She's good now, put the weight back on and Ill be eternally grateful to the surgeon.

It's not the fault of the medical staff, as they are as good if not better than medics anywhere in the world, it's just that because it's free, people will abuse the system. People from abroad come and use the service we have paid for all our lives, for free! And yes, you can jump the queue by going private, which is what our government would like, which means you pay twice!

Phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

lol Phill,
I get that all the time " phone back at 8:30 tomorrow".

I could not even make an appointment 2 month in advance as their system only works for 4 rolling weeks at a time. I asked why, they said " its just the way it is"

Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

In Canada if one was to break ones leg all that the person does is go to the hospital, it is put in a cast and he goes home the same day. No charge. If it is busy at the hospital then you are put on a priority list and you must wait...Free of Charge. If you have to stay overnight or for an extended period of time it is free unless you want a semi-private/private room or sum perks in which case it's gonna cost you or you better have insurance at work.
Certain drugs are free (paid for by taxes) as are certain treatments. I don't know which ones so I can't help you there but I can say for me...I have had my ankle wired together for twenty years due to an accident...No Charge. I have had a bad back due to baseball with max time off of one year. Therapy was covered by work insurance lost work time covered by insurance and Government benefits.

In the last year I have developed a condition that is not good. In two weeks I will have a full body MRI...No charge. Lots of blood tests...No charge. Medications...No insurance...Charge!!!Damn.

When people leave the country to look for alternate therapy I believe it is more because they can afford to travel to get help, not because of the waiting, more because they can afford to try what ever it takes to get better. If that is what it takes then good on them.

Hope this answers a few of your questions

Kenny

Just Keepin on Keepin on
Martin DC15E
Cort MR710F
Squire Strat (Chinese)

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

as an addendum,

[i think i'd better put things straight]

in the UK, you can go to the A&E with broken or suspected bones at any time, i went last year after almost splitting my head open in work, and had the full treatment for free, MRI the lot as they thought i'd broken my neck! i hadn't, but in case. the NHS is a wonderful institution. in wales we also have free doctors prescriptions, which they dont have in england, but the tories have already said that they will withdraw them if they get in next time!

come on LABOUR

phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

Thanks all, this is helpful.  And thanks also for staying on topic and off politics (except for the occaissional necessary barb which I think we can all forgive). 

I have found medicine in the U.S. to be awkward at best.  I've always had insurance, but not always good insurance.  I had stomach pain for ten years going to either campus doctors while in college or then to HMO doctors when I had poor insurance.  None did me any good.  When I finally was able to see a real honest-to-goodness general practitioner with a lifetime of experience, he diagnosed the problem and identified an appropriate therapy before he finished his cup of tea (which he had carried into the exam room with him).  So long as I stay on the drugs, I don't have the pain.  Ten years it took, but I had been to the doctor's and it hadn't cost me much.  Later in life I began to get food stuck in my throat.  Now, this oddly was the result of two things we already knew about my health, but I guess not many people have the two of them working together to screw up their lives like I do, so no one thought of it.  It went on for a few years and a few emergency surgeries until a specialist who was called in to do one of the surgeries took an interest and took me on as a patient.  I never would have been able to get him as a specialist except for the luck of him being on call one night when I needed emergency surgery.  He worked with another specialist to figure out how the two things inter-acted on me, and now I'm right as rain (so long as I take the pills).  So, I didn't pay much.  But I'm not entirely sure I got good care, but for the good Lord's blessing and the fortune to have an emergency when the right person was on call. 

So, I guess those with insurance don't pay much.  As far as the claim that keeps getting made about America having the best health care in the world, well I have my doubts.  We have very good health care, that's certain.  But I surely have doubts about the best in the world. 

Now, those without insurance.  Totally screwed. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

As a follow up to our health care system, there seems to be a movement of family doctors leaving Canada for the states and more money. I don't have a problem with this at all but we genuinely have a shortage of family doctors. There are a lot of people that don't have family doctors cause they can't find one so I don't know what they do.
I will say that my Doctors office is a teaching clinic where there is a new Doogie Howzer every 6 months. This can be annoying but it is what it is and at least I have that. I don't know where they go when they leave but it can't be around here.

Kenny

Just Keepin on Keepin on
Martin DC15E
Cort MR710F
Squire Strat (Chinese)

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

Yes, American doctors are worshipping the almighty dollar.  This is evidenced by the fact that all doctors offices are overbooked, so you rarely get in at your appointed time.  No patients, no money, so they book extra patients daily just in case someone doesn't show or they diagnose, or appease the patient and send them on their way quicker. Next!  And medical costs are sky high, even with insurance, or because of insurance.

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Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

Sorry, being an American I can't comment from the first person perspective, but I have a friend who's Canadian and related this story to me as an example of the Northern version of health care for everyone:

  Her Mom was injured in an auto accident and needed surgery to repair a knee damaged in the collision.  It was not a life threatening condition, but more related to a "quality of life issue".  Surgery was refused by the Health Services because she had a diagnosis of cancer in her records (although she had been treated and was in remission), the surgery on her knee was considered a waste of time and money, as if her cancer returned and she died it would have gone for naught.  Seeing as how the auto insurance was footing the bill, she was able to come South of the border and have the procedure done without delay and countless appeals. 

  Not too sure how that all works, but sounded like some accountant in some cubicle making decisions about someone else's medical care......
Kind of like telling you that you can't have that root canal because twenty years ago you were hospitalized for pneumonia and if you get it again you might die and all my good work would be wasted on you.  But I'd be happy to pull that stump for you, and you can buy a cheap denture at the corner drugstore... I'll write you a note even.

Take Care;
Doug

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

So she received treatment, then, and the cost of treatment was covered by her automobile insurance.  Sounds like it's possible that the Health Services decision didn't have anything to do with her cancer, but had a good bit to do with the fact that the other taxpayers of the country shouldn't have to pay for something that was already covered by insurance.  I don't find that an altogether unreasonable decision. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

Gotta chime in on the National Health Service.

Apart from Dentistry, it's free at the point of need. If tomorrow I decided to do an Evil Kinevil out this window to my right, and ended up in four pieces under one of the buses that were passing - the NHS would patch me up ( but only if I were still alive ) for free. I may also have a sore head.

Waiting lists are a pain, but I don't have to pay for the family doctor, they still do home visits. I can get a same day appointment if I am prepared to wait at the end of the day and don't ask for a specific doctor. I had a cancer scare a few years ago, and I had all the tests for free ( including some tests where tests aren't ever supposed to go). Mum has been in and out of hospital a lot over the past few years - no need for insurance or worry over how bills will ever be paid. 

All our kids were brought into the world with the NHS, every gripe or bicycle fall was dealt with by the NHS all without having to think about it being the wrong end of the month.

The big thing is that we know if we get really sick we don't have the worry of selling the house to pay the bill.

There was a Conservative politician on US TV saying that the NHS was "a 60 year mistake". The guy is a fool and is probably in a minority of one - even his Party leader is saying that he "stands four square behind the NHS" - and he is the heir to Margaret Thatcher.

"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Davis

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

There is an incredible shortage of general practitioners here in the States as well, primarily because specialists in the medical field (cardiac surgeons, orthopedics, etc...) make a whole lot more money than a family practitioner or GP does.

I know a lot of Canadians and Europeans, and I don't know any that would trade what they have for what we have, which is essentially "Pay or Die."

Someday we'll win this thing...

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Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

Like stransongs got to say the NHS is there when you really need them...
My father died 3 years ago next week from the start of him feeling unwell to the time he was sent home
diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer they gave us a Macmillan cancer nurse 24/7 and a domestic
and personal care nurse to help every day..After he died the Macmillan nurse changed his pj's shaved
him and combed his hair ... all the drugs and equipment ,visiting doctors all done with no charge and
lots of kindness... Might not be perfect  but I and my mother will never forget what they did...

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

In Ireland, workers pay PRSI (Pay Related Social Insurance).  This entitles you to use our NHS.  However because of the delays and waiting list, you have no choice but to purchase private health insurance.  This costs a big chunk of money.

However unless you earn minimum wage you don’t qualify for a medical card, so you only qualify for parts of the NHS.

Therefore when you go to your GP, dentist or optician you have to pay.  A GP will charge up to €50 per visit.  Then you pay for your prescription and your drugs.

So a working Joe on average wages will pay for PRSI and private insurance amd after that will still pay to access the services.

It sucks!!

My ambition far exceeds my ability

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

This story has made it big over here, people are jumping up and down to put the record straight on the NHS.

This is now what we are hearing about the US Health system - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree … healthcare . Is that a true picture ?

One interesting figure I saw was that the US spends 16% of GDP on health - the UK spends just 8 %.

"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Davis

18 (edited by Zurf 2009-08-17 14:21:56)

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

StranSongs wrote:

This story has made it big over here, people are jumping up and down to put the record straight on the NHS.

This is now what we are hearing about the US Health system - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree … healthcare . Is that a true picture ?

One interesting figure I saw was that the US spends 16% of GDP on health - the UK spends just 8 %.

Skimming the article, I'd say yes.  It is ONE accurate picture of the U.S. system.  It is not indicative of all health care here, just as any single anecdote from the UK could not possibly represent the whole of NHS.  Nevertheless, I can say without additional qualification that her story is easy to believe and far from unique. 

Many people talk here about their fears that health care will be rationed in a government run system.  Her point that health care is ALREADY rationed in the U.S. is absolutely and entirely correct.  That's not to say that health care wouldn't be rationed in a government run system, but that the rationing would be nothing new.  Furthermore, rationing decisions will actually be decisions rather than accidents of financial standing.  The only issue is who do we trust more to ration our health care, nameless and faceless beaurocrats in the government or nameless and faceless beancounters in the insurance industry?  Neither option is terribly appealing. 

Edit to add: While the 16% figure doesn't surprise me in the least, and I have seen higher estimates even than that, I think that it falls whoafully short if one were to take into account secondary effects.  It is my opinion that our current health care insurance/payment system prevents innovation and entrepreneurialism, and therefore limits our GDP growth.  I further submit that this downward pressure on GDP growth is substantial. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

If there is to be rationing, then maybe it should be on the basis of clinical need, rather the ability to pay.  It'd be tough, but fair - and Doctors do it every day in life anyway.

On the GDP figure, it sounds like you're being taxed by the insurance companies, rather than the government !

One thing I would like to know - in the Irish republic as well as the US - is what happens if you are elderly with a small pension and no kids - and you get very sick ?

"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Davis

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

StranSongs wrote:

is what happens if you are elderly with a small pension and no kids - and you get very sick ?

I can't speak for the UK in general or Ireland in particular, but in the U.S. if you don't have family to take care of you, then you spend your last days in pain and misery eager for death to come as relief.   But hey, at least we're not socialists, right? 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

Zurf wrote:

But hey, at least we're not socialists, right? 

- Zurf

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

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Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

I am lol
Or I would like to be as comunism doesnt work lol next best thing really I think.

Zurf, I can talk for all the UK and Southern Ireland lol lol  whether they like it or not.

Folk with or without families that get NHS care still spend their last few days/hours etc in pain due to costs.
Because NHS is free care it is not always the best care. There has been a lot of documented cases where the NHS have said no to certain drugs because of the cost.
So really they are saying their life is not wirht as much as money.
I can see their point too though. Lots of folk want the expensive drugs to prolong their life for a few more months or years but in the end they will go and they money could be used elsewhere.
In my opinion ( and I speak for the world here, not just the UK and Ireland lol )
If there was £500 left in the NHS fund I would rather it got spent on a child to be cured  rather than someone over 50 prolonging their life for a few more months. But when you are in a situation like this you want it all.
Money should never come into it for health care no matter the illness, no matter how long it will last, but it does.
And i am on a ramble here, I just cannot stop my fingers going here.

I dont know how I would have coped if I had to pay for care if I were in the U.S. Would I have paid for minor things like getting cysts cuts out, getting my jaw fixed, dental care when I was in no pain, my nose job to breath better through it. Would I have went to the docs with a chest pain that went away ?
vasectomy is also free! I bet the catholic church hate that idea ,lol. But this also is a demonstration of wasted money. To go private it only costs about £150 ( so I am told) So what does a guy want? spend £150 on the snip or pay £100,000's on  bringing up a child?
If someone doesnt want a child that much then £150 is a very small amount to pay to get knackered yet so many of these Ops get done free of charge.

I really think now we in the UK take this NHS far too much for granted. Apart from my jaw which I really needed done I dont think I would have bothered with anything else if I had to pay for it. I would even have paid for my jaw to be fixed.

Ken
For and on behalf of the UK,ireland and the world
lol lol

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

My girlfriend is Irish born and raised.  She's got her visa to come to the states, but she is really worried about health care.  It's hard for her to comprehend that you pay for everything over here.  She's investigating whether or not she can pay a little extra to have her PRSI continued so it will cover her here.

Health care here can be the best in the world, if you can afford it.  That's not the problem.   The problem is the other end of the scale, where you can't afford it.  Every other westernized nation on Earth provides some measure of health coverage and access for their citizens.  In the States, if you can't afford it, you just go without.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

upyerkilt wrote:

I am lol

I dont know how I would have coped if I had to pay for care if I were in the U.S. Would I have paid for minor things like getting cysts cuts out, getting my jaw fixed, dental care when I was in no pain, my nose job to breath better through it. Would I have went to the docs with a chest pain that went away ?

Yes, you'd pay for everything.  Or you'd pay for insurance, which may or may not pay for everything.

The US system is Pay or Die.   We have very few programs for health care, and those only cover the elderly and the handicapped.

Regular people get bupkis.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: UK and Canadian Patients...

jerome.oneil wrote:

The US system is Pay or Die.   We have very few programs for health care, and those only cover the elderly and the handicapped.

Regular people get bupkis.

That is far from true. In fact, the exact opposite is true. It is illegal for a hospital to deny care. One of the reasons health care is so expensive here is because of the uninsured (many of whom are in the country illegally) who get virtually free care. Well, free to them anyway - the rest of us pay for it.

Roughly half of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. don't have health insurance, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research group. Like others who can't afford medical care, illegal immigrants tend to flock to hospital emergency rooms, which, under a 1986 law, can't turn people away, even if they can't pay. Emergency-room visits, where treatment costs are much higher than in clinics, jumped 32% nationally between 1996 and 2006, the latest data available.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1250272 … #printMode

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